follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 2nd Gens: GR86 and BRZ > GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86)

GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-11-2022, 10:01 AM   #995
Robertw
Senior Member
 
Robertw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 1996 Turbo Miata
Location: MA
Posts: 150
Thanks: 54
Thanked 92 Times in 48 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
The reasonable dealers "non refundable" deposits only apply if the car arrives and then you don't take it. They are fully refundable if you set a time limit and no car shows up in that period.
The whole idea is to try to get cars to people that are serious about buying one THERE not running around wasting dealers time trying to order cars from everybody hoping to get one faster.
It’s unclear if you’re not fully understanding the situation, or simply being willfully ignorant because you chose a position to defend dealerships and that’s your hill to die on now.

To explain, when putting a deposit down you submit a build sheet for the car you want, fill out a credit card authorization form to run your card for the deposit, and more often than not fill out paperwork to have your credit report run. There is no paperwork involved regarding a time limit for how quickly the dealership will get you your car.

What actually happens is you put your deposit down for the car you want, let’s say a red premium manual, the dealership tells you 4-6 months, month 8 comes around and a white base manual arrives. The dealership offers you the car, you can A. Take it, or B. Pass on it. By passing on it, you wait for another allocation, the dealership does not offer to refund your deposit. In their opinion they got you a car, you passed on it. You can walk away, but they keep your deposit. The dealership is under no obligation to get you the exact car you want, because they don’t decide what cars they get. They know this and are insisting on taking non refundable deposits, knowing once they have your deposit, they can do with you what they want.

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.
Robertw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:18 AM   #996
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,289 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2497 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
It’s unclear if you’re not fully understanding the situation, or simply being willfully ignorant because you chose a position to defend dealerships and that’s your hill to die on now.

To explain, when putting a deposit down you submit a build sheet for the car you want, fill out a credit card authorization form to run your card for the deposit, and more often than not fill out paperwork to have your credit report run. There is no paperwork involved regarding a time limit for how quickly the dealership will get you your car.

What actually happens is you put your deposit down for the car you want, let’s say a red premium manual, the dealership tells you 4-6 months, month 8 comes around and a white base manual arrives. The dealership offers you the car, you can A. Take it, or B. Pass on it. By passing on it, you wait for another allocation, the dealership does not offer to refund your deposit. In their opinion they got you a car, you passed on it. You can walk away, but they keep your deposit. The dealership is under no obligation to get you the exact car you want, because they don’t decide what cars they get. They know this and are insisting on taking non refundable deposits, knowing once they have your deposit, they can do with you what they want.

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.
I fully understand the methodology.
I did exactly this process to order my Hakone.
I however did not go to several dealers order one and put down a non refundable deposit hoping one would get it faster than the other.
I also was smart enough to get in WRITING that if they could not get one within 6 months my non refundable deposit would be refunded.
They got one, the deposit went against the price and all was good.

To be clear I am not defending the dealer nor the buyer here. If somebody wants to put down deposits on several orders that is their call and reasonable.
At the same time dealers wanting to protect their sale by insuring that when they get the car in the buyer actually takes it is also reasonable.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:26 AM   #997
Robertw
Senior Member
 
Robertw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 1996 Turbo Miata
Location: MA
Posts: 150
Thanks: 54
Thanked 92 Times in 48 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
At the same time dealers wanting to protect their sale by insuring that when they get the car in the buyer actually takes it is also reasonable.
Again, there are more buyers than cars. This is not the same market as 4-5 years ago. The cars will never sit on the lot if a buyer backs out, and that goes for every single segment of vehicle in the current market, the GR86 having more buyers waiting than cars available by orders of magnitude.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense in todays market. Please stop.
Robertw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:29 AM   #998
BioRebel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Drives: Mini Cooper S
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 111
Thanks: 50
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
It’s unclear if you’re not fully understanding the situation, or simply being willfully ignorant because you chose a position to defend dealerships and that’s your hill to die on now.

To explain, when putting a deposit down you submit a build sheet for the car you want, fill out a credit card authorization form to run your card for the deposit, and more often than not fill out paperwork to have your credit report run. There is no paperwork involved regarding a time limit for how quickly the dealership will get you your car.

What actually happens is you put your deposit down for the car you want, let’s say a red premium manual, the dealership tells you 4-6 months, month 8 comes around and a white base manual arrives. The dealership offers you the car, you can A. Take it, or B. Pass on it. By passing on it, you wait for another allocation, the dealership does not offer to refund your deposit. In their opinion they got you a car, you passed on it. You can walk away, but they keep your deposit. The dealership is under no obligation to get you the exact car you want, because they don’t decide what cars they get. They know this and are insisting on taking non refundable deposits, knowing once they have your deposit, they can do with you what they want.

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.
Funny enough this is why I went with the BRZ instead of the 86. And I imagine the hate for Toyotas allocation system is going to grow once people try to get their hands on the GR Corolla. Or when they try to get a manual Supra.
I knew something was weird with their process when I saw so many automatic GR86's out there on lots but not a manual in sight.


Either way, Subaru accepted my order for a sapphire blue with manual transmission and short throw! Gonna be fun having this thing and then turning my 2010 mini cooper s into a track car.
BioRebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:38 AM   #999
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,289 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2497 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
Again, there are more buyers than cars. This is not the same market as 4-5 years ago. The cars will never sit on the lot if a buyer backs out, and that goes for every single segment of vehicle in the current market, the GR86 having more buyers waiting than cars available by orders of magnitude.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense in todays market. Please stop.
Makes perfect sense. You just don't want to hear it. Especially in this market where one person is claiming several cars. Doesn't matter if they will sell anyway.

Mine was one of 35 brought into the country and they didn't build them anymore. You don't get more restricted than that.

As you said EVERY car right now (well other than Ram trucks) have more buyers than cars right now. My wife has been waiting for an Ascent for 3 months. We did not go to several dealers and leave a deposit hoping one would get it quicker.

The dispute here is about the supposedly "non refundable" deposits not how hard it is to get cars or how easily they will sell. The deposits can totally be refundable if people just take the simple precaution of getting conditions documented.
You are really adding scope creep to the discussion in your desperate attempt to tell me I am wrong.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:40 AM   #1000
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,890
Thanks: 39,034
Thanked 25,101 Times in 11,449 Posts
Mentioned: 182 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.
If consumers are putting down multiple nonrefundable deposits down on the car, that's on them. If the consumer is going to one dealership and putting down a nonrefundable deposit, that is also on them if they choose not to exercise it. No one is forcing the consumer into that situation, it is not like it's a Toyota corporate wide policy, there are always alternatives.

Ultimately, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on anything I haven't actually laid eyes, or aren't 100% sure I was going to buy.

Long term though, if car sales continue to move toward the order now, delivery later model I agree Toyota will have to change their system to match. If I'm going to have to order a car, rather than select one, then I expect to get the exact car I order, not a reasonable facsimile.
__________________
Olivia 05/03/2012 - 01/06/2024. 231,146 glorious miles.

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:42 AM   #1001
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,289 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2497 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioRebel View Post
Funny enough this is why I went with the BRZ instead of the 86. And I imagine the hate for Toyotas allocation system is going to grow once people try to get their hands on the GR Corolla. Or when they try to get a manual Supra.
I knew something was weird with their process when I saw so many automatic GR86's out there on lots but not a manual in sight.


Either way, Subaru accepted my order for a sapphire blue with manual transmission and short throw! Gonna be fun having this thing and then turning my 2010 mini cooper s into a track car.
No different than any other manufacturers issues when it is a high demand deliberate low production specialty vehicle. There were fistfights over ordering Hellcats when they were first announced.

The biggest issue with the GR86 isn't the ordering system but the unplanned low production numbers. In a "normal" year they would have had enough made to go around already. Unfortunately this car was released in one of the worst years in the history of the industry.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 10:48 AM   #1002
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,289 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2497 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
If consumers are putting down multiple nonrefundable deposits down on the car, that's on them. If the consumer is going to one dealership and putting down a nonrefundable deposit, that is also on them if they choose not to exercise it. No one is forcing the consumer into that situation, it is not like it's a Toyota corporate wide policy, there are always alternatives.

Ultimately, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on anything I haven't actually laid eyes, or aren't 100% sure I was going to buy.

Long term though, if car sales continue to move toward the order now, delivery later model I agree Toyota will have to change their system to match. If I'm going to have to order a car, rather than select one, then I expect to get the exact car I order, not a reasonable facsimile.
Toyota Canada is already headed down this road. You can actually order any model to your specs same as Subaru. They also have a really robust inter dealer swap system so if they don't have it on the lot they can usually get one quick.

EXCEPT the GR86. This is probably because they don't actually build the car and the order system between them and Subaru may simply not be set up to special order anything.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (05-11-2022)
Old 05-11-2022, 10:54 AM   #1003
BioRebel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Drives: Mini Cooper S
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 111
Thanks: 50
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
No different than any other manufacturers issues when it is a high demand deliberate low production specialty vehicle. There were fistfights over ordering Hellcats when they were first announced.

The biggest issue with the GR86 isn't the ordering system but the unplanned low production numbers. In a "normal" year they would have had enough made to go around already. Unfortunately this car was released in one of the worst years in the history of the industry.
This article sums up the issue nicely with a story about someone still waiting on a GR86 order
https://jalopnik.com/you-might-not-g...lla-1848804894


By just making stuff and distributing it based on some formula they're only making the problem worse. And don't get me started on dealer markups.
BioRebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 11:00 AM   #1004
Robertw
Senior Member
 
Robertw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 1996 Turbo Miata
Location: MA
Posts: 150
Thanks: 54
Thanked 92 Times in 48 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post

The dispute here is about the supposedly "non refundable" deposits not how hard it is to get cars or how easily they will sell. The deposits can totally be refundable if people just take the simple precaution of getting conditions documented.
You are really adding scope creep to the discussion in your desperate attempt to tell me I am wrong.
You’ve repeatedly made the argument that the reason for non refundable deposits is so that dealerships have a guaranteed buyer to sell the car to, I only mentioned the market conditions to counter your point, there are more buyers than cars, a buyer backing out DOES NOT MATTER. The car will be gone in a moments notice.

I’ve also said, repeatedly, it’s on the buyers to understand what they’re signing. Folks please read. That does not change my opinion though, that non refundable deposits are a scam. When I called them a scam is when the dealer white knights showed up, and started this debate.

Last edited by Robertw; 05-11-2022 at 11:13 AM.
Robertw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 11:08 AM   #1005
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,289 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2497 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioRebel View Post
This article sums up the issue nicely with a story about someone still waiting on a GR86 order
https://jalopnik.com/you-might-not-g...lla-1848804894


By just making stuff and distributing it based on some formula they're only making the problem worse. And don't get me started on dealer markups.
It isn't just a Toyota thing. Low volume specialty cars have never been made in quantities that meant everybody could get one the day they came out. This will never change. It is sometimes even the scarcity that makes them desirable.
As much as dealer markups suck they are a business and have a product that people are willing to pay extra for. As long as people continue to pay that extra they will charge it.
If you are selling your car and somebody says they will give you $5,000 more than it is worth are you going to say no?
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (05-11-2022), OkieSnuffBox (05-11-2022)
Old 05-11-2022, 11:13 AM   #1006
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,289 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2497 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
You’ve repeatedly made the argument that the reason for non refundable deposits is so that dealerships have a guaranteed buyer to sell the car to, I only mentioned the market conditions to counter your point, there are more buyers than cars, a buyer backing out DOES NOT MATTER. The car will be gone in a moments notice.

I’ve also said, repeatedly, it’s on the buyers to understand what they’re singing. Folks please read. That does not change my opinion though, that non refundable deposits are a scam. When I called them a scam is when the dealer white knights showed up, and started this debate.
Do you work for free? If your boss said "I will give you a $1,000 bonus if you have this done by this date" and then comes back and says "I know you did it on time but Fred finished it yesterday so no bonus for you" would you be good with that?
Dealerships are a business and want to ensure they stay that way not spend time working on deals that are not going to happen. If people order a product they should be prepared to follow through.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2022, 11:22 AM   #1007
racingfool
Senior Member
 
racingfool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Drives: Miata
Location: Seattle
Posts: 241
Thanks: 86
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
non refundable deposits are a scam
If the exact spec you asked for shows up in the time agreed to, non refundable?

Otherwise it is refundable?

Seems fair.
racingfool is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to racingfool For This Useful Post:
OkieSnuffBox (05-11-2022)
Old 05-11-2022, 11:29 AM   #1008
BioRebel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Drives: Mini Cooper S
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 111
Thanks: 50
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
It isn't just a Toyota thing. Low volume specialty cars have never been made in quantities that meant everybody could get one the day they came out. This will never change. It is sometimes even the scarcity that makes them desirable.
As much as dealer markups suck they are a business and have a product that people are willing to pay extra for. As long as people continue to pay that extra they will charge it.
If you are selling your car and somebody says they will give you $5,000 more than it is worth are you going to say no?
1. It is a toyota thing, they don't take factory orders which throws fuel onto the fire you're describing. If they just took factory orders like Subaru then maybe people wouldn't be placing orders at every dealer hoping the gachapon distribution system gives them the one they want (or one at all)

2. If I give a dealer money up front for a car to be sold to me @ MSRP then we've entered a deal and they should honor that deal. And if they jack up the price when the car comes in then I should be able to get my full deposit back. PERIOD.
BioRebel is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chat omfg5041 Site Announcements / Questions / Issues 2 11-01-2014 09:11 AM
we should have a chat jdmblood Site Announcements / Questions / Issues 10 08-01-2014 12:09 PM
January Sale! 7% off all orders over $150. Orders over $299 get free shipping too! Infamous Performance Announcements, Contests, Giveaways 20 01-31-2014 01:17 PM
Official WA CHAT Thread! Spring=girls in skimpy clothes, meets and new mods*chat* Dsea5 Northwest 33 04-18-2013 12:05 PM
chat bakerr6 Site Announcements / Questions / Issues 0 12-26-2012 10:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.