Review of "Track Mode" on the MY17+ cars

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Briankbot

Having read through this thread and having heard of Chris's (assuming his last name starts with "M") driving reputation and accomplishments from other sources, I'm inclined to agree with your take that track mode isn't stopping a driver from getting the fastest time achievable out of a car.

In some ways this reminds me of the pedal dance discussion, which I used to use until someone who is a SCCA Solo multi-time national champion and test driver for a major tire manufacturer convinced me the button hold method ('13-'16 model years) is actually better. For me, achievements in competition have quite a bit of influence on what I'm inclined to test and adopt in the pursuit of going faster.

It is better when you want to be able to just mash to stop. It is not better, if you're seeking to hone your technique. There are also a small number of scenarios where the 5 second press can have some very bad results, which don't apply to most folks, but is something anyone with a seriously prepped car should be aware of.

[Hyper4mance2k]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

When it does kick in, you never are given the opportunity to learn how to correct it yourself.

This. You're not learning car control. You're learning the limits of the car and the car itself is correcting mistakes. Once you bump up against the limits and you know how to recognize them, it's time to pedal dance.

Or, just man up and jump in with both feet. That's how I learned to swim. Okay, not really. My brother pushed me in the deep end, but same result nonetheless.

[mkodama]

LOL @ Chris’s name and reputation showing up on an 86 forum. I only eat Mexican food with him so I cannot attest to his speed first hand.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I also am employed by multiple automotive manufacturers as a development driver and test driver, and in many cases, work with several of them at the highest levels of testing, for both roadgoing and race vehicles.

I'd be more than happy to be open to discussion with Chris, provided we are employed by the same company(ies), as otherwise, further public discussion is prohibited by our respective employment contracts.

Ok, this just got silly.

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It is better when you want to be able to just mash to stop. It is not better, if you're seeking to hone your technique. There are also a small number of scenarios where the 5 second press can have some very bad results, which don't apply to most folks, but is something anyone with a seriously prepped car should be aware of.

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

This. You're not learning car control. You're learning the limits of the car and the car itself is correcting mistakes. Once you bump up against the limits and you know how to recognize them, it's time to pedal dance.

Or, just man up and jump in with both feet. That's how I learned to swim. Okay, not really. My brother pushed me in the deep end, but same result nonetheless.

But the whole point of this thread is talking about how track mode won't interfere with 99% of drivers out there when they do track days. It will allow them to drive at 99% of the car's potential should they ever get to be a good enough driver that they reach that point. But for the rest of the track day enthusiasts, track mode is a great way to enjoy your car while adding some insurance to keep it safe.

All of your comments lead me to believe that you see "track mode" and instantly go to "NO BRO! You'll never win the race!" When there's a HUGE market out there for people that want to go enjoy driving their car much faster than they can legally or safely go on the street, but they don't care about cranking out that last half a tenth. But what they do care about is the risk of totaling their daily driver when they make a mistake. That's a hard lesson to learn when the goal is to go have fun, not shave half a tenth. So, regardless of how you feel track mode slows down the very best of the best drivers, I still feel it is an EXCELLENT upgrade from "sport mode" on the 13-16 cars for everyone up to the slightly-above-average-Joe that wants to enjoy their car without the car getting in the way until it's time to save a crash. You can pedal dance all you want if it helps you feel more secure about your man card

[NoHaveMSG]

The 5 sec press interferes with most drivers on an older car, they just don't realize it until they try pedal dance. I ran with an instructor for the first time a couple weeks ago and he could tell when I would pedal dance the car vs 5 sec press. You can really feel the ebd cause the rear of the car to do weird stuff. I find it hard to believe that the new track mode is less intrusive then a 5 sec press.

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

The 5 sec press interferes with most drivers on an older car, they just don't realize it until they try pedal dance. I ran with an instructor for the first time a couple weeks ago and he could tell when I would pedal dance the car vs 5 sec press. You can really feel the ebd cause the rear of the car to do weird stuff. I find it hard to believe that the new track mode is less intrusive then a 5 sec press.

I never said it was....

[juliog]

Intermediate drivers that got comfortable pushing hard while relying on the safety net of the aids are the most likely to get caught off by them

1) not being foolproof (some driver errors are be too big to correct)
2) doing something unexpected (e.g. understeer while trailbraking)
3) doing something downright dangerous (the example of car grabbing brakes at high speed after hitting a bump and throwing car off the desired trajectory..)

The driver has far more context than the computer to do the right thing. The BRZ's track mode is also not a pro racing TC system (and those fail too, but far less often). Drivers seeking to exploit "99% of the car's potential" should use pedal dance.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

But the whole point of this thread is talking about how track mode won't interfere with 99% of drivers out there when they do track days. It will allow them to drive at 99% of the car's potential should they ever get to be a good enough driver that they reach that point. But for the rest of the track day enthusiasts, track mode is a great way to enjoy your car while adding some insurance to keep it safe.

All of your comments lead me to believe that you see "track mode" and instantly go to "NO BRO! You'll never win the race!" When there's a HUGE market out there for people that want to go enjoy driving their car much faster than they can legally or safely go on the street, but they don't care about cranking out that last half a tenth. But what they do care about is the risk of totaling their daily driver when they make a mistake. That's a hard lesson to learn when the goal is to go have fun, not shave half a tenth. So, regardless of how you feel track mode slows down the very best of the best drivers, I still feel it is an EXCELLENT upgrade from "sport mode" on the 13-16 cars for everyone up to the slightly-above-average-Joe that wants to enjoy their car without the car getting in the way until it's time to save a crash. You can pedal dance all you want if it helps you feel more secure about your man card

Damn man all I use is the 5 second press for autox I must suck.

[trippinbillies40]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Damn man all I use is the 5 second press for autox I must suck.

Yeah I had never realized this either. Surely that's what cost me the jacket in 2015.

Except, I'm pretty sure DM only used the 5 second press too, so hmmm.....

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

Yeah I had never realized this either. Surely that's what cost me the jacket in 2015.

Except, I'm pretty sure DM only used the 5 second press too, so hmmm.....

And Pallotta, and Lugod....

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

Yeah I had never realized this either. Surely that's what cost me the jacket in 2015.

Except, I'm pretty sure DM only used the 5 second press too, so hmmm.....

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

And Pallotta, and Lugod....

You guys truly don't understand the difference between the press and the dance.

The setup and skillset of autox =/= tracking.

Likewise, many of the mentioned can just simply drive around the limiting factors of the car, which is what autox'ing is to begin with. Try taking a nationally competitive autox car on track, and compare it to an equally prepped track car, and note the differences in the behavior of both cars, both with a 5 second press, and with the pedal dance.

Seriously, do this objective measurement. Just use an AIM Solo DL and log wheel speeds.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by trippinbillies40

I never said it was....

My response was based around this comment.

But the whole point of this thread is talking about how track mode won't interfere with 99% of drivers out there when they do track days.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

My response was based around this comment.

Based on more recent posts, I believe it's due to his autox background. The driving style of AutoX doesn't result in the pedal dance being faster. Rather, the pedal dance will hurt most driver than help, as EBD lets you do thing you can't with the pedal dance.

e-diff is a non-issue in an autox environment with an autox setup.

OP has not accepted how many times I can see/hear the systems kicking in, in his OWN video!

[Twinz]

After driving a 17 in track mode, I think the new track mode is what the old sport mode should have been. (There is nothing "sporty" about the old sport mode) If a driver has any question if they want to turn off the nannies, they should probably just run track mode.

The pedal dance is another issue. I guess one could argue that the twins' particular implementation of EBD is bad, but I can't help but think this same debate took place when ABS started showing up.

"Real drivers don't use ABS" or something to that effect...

Both EBD and ABS are capable of controlling braking in ways that a driver with a brake pedal simply can't. Sure, driving older Miata's with no ABS is more of a challenge , (so they arguably require more "skill" to go fast) but it would never occur to me to disable ABS on a car that has it.