Killer B Motorsport 2022+ FA24 BRZ/GR86 Oil Retention Baffle Development

[dsc_pat]

We all used to have the moroso 5.5L road race oil pan in our B-series honda back in the days, which had directional doors to prevent starving. It worked very well and was super reliable. I looked for pics, but they all suck as the top baffle hides the doors.

https://jhpusa.com/en-ca/products/mo...affled-oil-pan

[vindiesel]

Of all the technology and rigorous testing goes in a car and particularly this car did they just run an oil pressure gauge on a stationary dyno and check the box? Why would you not thrash the vehicles in its natural habitat with all data inputs running to measure all values and literally tell people to abuse the car to find its weak points?

You wonder if the fa20 they got lucky and applied the same bogus test that they clearly didn’t try here.

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by dsc_pat

We all used to have the moroso 5.5L road race oil pan in our B-series honda back in the days, which had directional doors to prevent starving. It worked very well and was super reliable. I looked for pics, but they all suck as the top baffle hides the doors.

https://jhpusa.com/en-ca/products/mo...affled-oil-pan

This is similar to the pan I run on my KSwap first gen. It'll still drop pressure (80s psi to 50s psi) and recover extremely quickly in a few very limited situations unless I overfill about half a quart. Oil definitely goes up the timing chain cover based on the sweating I see.

In either case, it would seem FA pan design is somewhat limited by the header.

[austintampa]

Likely needs a different style pickup and/or an aftermarket oil pan.

I know its not rocket appliances - but all of your pressurery tests and graphicy graphics are nice and all - but you could chase the problem down with a gopro pointed at a cup of water in the car. sync the timing of the gopro to the oil pressure and whatever the water is doing the oil is doing. then focus on baffling that region.

[zeroomega]

Originally Posted by sns.brz

Like this?
https://www.apexi-usa.com/products/k...s-86-brz-13-21

Yes, potentially this product should have better pressure improvements than the Syms baffle I currently have, if the hypothesis on asymmetric oil pickup location is correct.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by austintampa

Likely needs a different style pickup and/or an aftermarket oil pan.

I know its not rocket appliances - but all of your pressurery tests and graphicy graphics are nice and all - but you could chase the problem down with a gopro pointed at a cup of water in the car. sync the timing of the gopro to the oil pressure and whatever the water is doing the oil is doing. then focus on baffling that region.

Funny thing is I actually suggested to a local fab shop here to put a cap to a brand new oil pan and put it into a centrifuge setup and apply 2G laterally to the pan to see where the oil winds up. Either use a GoPro to view the slosh or just add dye to mark where the oil goes.

[OldBiker]

Originally Posted by austintampa

...a gopro pointed at a cup of water in the car. sync the timing of the gopro to the oil pressure and whatever the water is doing the oil is doing. then focus on baffling that region.

He already displays the G-Meter... no need for a Flintstone version :-)

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by 900BRZ

Regarding the 500 ml overfill: These results look roughly as expected oiling performance on slower laps. My opinion is there is truth behind the anecdotal higher failure rates among advanced drivers who are able to consistently achieve higher cornering forces. The pressure with the overfill looks more consistent in T3E, but the pace is slower through that section on the lap with the overfill.

Doesn't look like overfill necessarily improves things much...

So, I ran a very right-hander intensive track last week (NJMP Lightning) and will be running a very right-hander intensive track next week (Thompson, CT). I somewhat limited my laps at NJMP and plan to do the same at Thompson. Also intend to do 85% of laps on RT660s and save the A052s for one abbreviated practice session and the time trial.

Q: how comfortable do you feel lapping your car with these pressure drops?

Considering Accusump, but my old 240Z's 3.1 lasted a decade and maybe 80 track days, dropping pressure every single right-hander, before I ran it low on oil at VIR and wasted a bearing... Installed a higher-capacity Nismo baffled pan with the rebuild!

For sure this loss of pressure will drastically reduce engine life in a tracked car, but I wonder if early-on failures might be a result of partially RTV-blocked oil passages combined with pressure drops. Pure speculation...

Anyway, obviously you're taking this *very* seriously so I'm curious how much you are limiting your track time based on still experiencing pressure drops.

Thanks!

[900BRZ]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Q: how comfortable do you feel lapping your car with these pressure drops?

If I blow an engine, I’d like to have found a solution for the pressure drops so I feel confident in replacing the engine and being able to reliably run on that new engine.

I just recently bought a front BBK for roughly the same cost as an FA24 short block through Subaru. Obviously that doesn’t include the labor involved in rebuilding the engine, but it helps keep things in proportion.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by 900BRZ

If I blow an engine, I’d like to have found a solution for the pressure drops so I feel confident in replacing the engine and being able to reliably run on that new engine.

I just recently bought a front BBK for roughly the same cost as an FA24 short block through Subaru. Obviously that doesn’t include the labor involved in rebuilding the engine, but it helps keep things in proportion.

Out of curiosity, are you noticing this get progressively worse during a session or consistent pressure drop lap to lap in a given corner? I'm just wondering how much drain back is also a factor, no amount of baffling will help that.

[900BRZ]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Out of curiosity, are you noticing this get progressively worse during a session or consistent pressure drop lap to lap in a given corner? I'm just wondering how much drain back is also a factor, no amount of baffling will help that.

It seems to be consistent rather than getting worse over a session.

What I’m thinking about right now is: If we can’t address the speed at which the oil returns, then all we can do is try to keep as much oil available to the pickup as possible. I think the Kazama design can help by reducing the effects of the offset pickup. I’m also thinking the Kazama-style baffle in combination with an overfill might be good enough to even out most of these drops.

Of course, accusumps or dry sumps are still an option down the line, but even an accusump becomes less necessary if you can mechanically keep the oil available to the pickup with a baffle.

[OldBiker]

Do you think it is possible the pump is having trouble re-establishing its prime even after the pickup tube gets back in oil? Or do you think the pickup is starved for oil throughout the low-pressure interval?

How much oil is there in the pan while going down a straight... and do you add significantly more oil to make up for the oil cooler volume? Yeah... lots of questions :-)

[MConte05]

Check out this article from almost a decade ago:


http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/01/...s-own-racecar/

From this angle you can also see the significantly altered sump/oil pan, which has been enlarged and baffled and modified around the pick-up to prevent surge under high cornering forces.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by MConte05

Check out this article from almost a decade ago:


http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/01/...s-own-racecar/

Call me dumb but where is this upgraded oil pan in the pictures?