GR 86: Orders /Reservation /Waitlist Chat

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by fredzy

In the regions close to me multiple deposits do not appear to be a widespread practice at all. There is no way to actually know, I'm basing this on the waitlists I'm aware of and my conversation with various salesman. The waitlists were mostly very short and surprisingly random. I figured they would be 90% PMT halo, red and neptune and it wasn't the case at all.

I suspect CA and other super populous areas are the only places this may be happening to any detrimental effect.


This is not a problem when you only work with MSRP-only dealers. Yes, the general artificial inflation of demand may cause some sort of ill effect, but that is 100% on Toyota as far as I'm concerned. If they actually cared, they would have a system like Subaru's in place where putting an "order" in actually meant something. There would be no multiple anything. Here's my name and money, give me an ETA and I'm done.

Anyhow, most dealers in my area that mark up don't even accept deposits. They get the car no strings attached so they can sell to the highest bidder once it's in their hands. This was the case with the Halo PMT I mentioned a few pages back.

And really that is the fairest way for everybody!

[TheDonEffect]

I mean... this is business. I hate shady dealers, and there's oftentimes more of them than not, which is why I always enter these dealings with my guard up.

Regarding non-refundable deposits, it is fair for a dealership to want to filter out people who are fishing from people who absolutely want the car, and it is fair for the consumer to have certain expectations with their deposit. Hence, I would need in writing in some form (exchange emails, texts, or better still on the pay invoice) what the expectations are. I will not pay a deposit money that binds me for an indefinite period of time. There has to be a set expectations, 1 month, 1 year, whatever, for a car configured as such, for an agreed upon price/ADM. Non-refundable deposits are hard to enforce on the dealer end provided that the consumer has a reasonable argument on why they want it refunded, but reasonable needs to be defined on the contract otherwise subject to a third party (like a judge) to determine. Btw, these can be fought in small claims court, which is a hassle yes, but far from undoable.

Additionally, if you didn't put down an agreed upon price, then there is no expectation that the dealer will do the "honorable" thing and give you a great price. Lots of dealers have changed their tunes in the past 6 months regarding this car, if you knew the other dealers were getting 10k over stick, who would not want to capture that profit.

Lastly, I'll remind you again, this is business, and in business lots of screwed up stuff happens. In sales there's a saying, it ain't sold until the money is in your account. Same goes with buying something, the car ain't bought until your check cleared and the car is in your garage. Plain and simple. Lots of shenanigans happen, and more often than not on the consumer end. Again, most dealers are scum, but probably just as much as consumers.

Do you know how many times I had a deal in hand with a dealer, even sent a hold deposit via Venmo or whatever, agreed to hold the car until the weekend so I can make it out there, and then the car is sold from under me? It's infuriating sure, but if someone walks in and offers more money on the spot, most would absolutely take the money on hand. Because I could show up on the weekend and say oh look a door ding, I want a discount, blah blah.

It's also I don't blame people for putting down multiple deposits to increase their own odds, but there is a negative externality that it artificially increases the perception of demand.

Further, I have no sympathy for those willing to pay ADM, you are effectively being the person who shows up, learns a car is on hold, and then says hey man I'll pay more if you sell it to me. Your desire for instant gratification is measured by the amount of ADM you're willing to pay. To be fair though, your circumstance may require you to get a vehicle asap, but I have more empathy towards a person shopping for a rav4 hybrid or Sienna than an impractical sportscar.

The consumer world and hobbies in general are being ruined by the desire to flex on social media, resellers, and over consumption addiction.

[Dadhawk]

Funny but I'm seeing this same thing amongst a couple of forums for the Cadillac Lyriq where a handful of people are talking about how they did multiple pre-orders (maybe one under their name and one under their spouse's name) in order to "make sure" they get the vehicle, even though they have a confirmed order. Others are ordering it in configurations they don't really want (say a RWD, Black with gray interior) when what they really want is a AWD, Blue with black interior because the build order says the RWD will come first (who cares?)

There are also a couple that have a reservation for the Lyriq, and Mach E, a Tesla Y, a Ford Lightning, and a Silverado EV, and plan to take whichever one comes first. Really? Pick a horse and ride it dude.

(Full disclosure, I do have a pre-order for a Lyriq and reservation for a Silverado EV, but I'm considering taking both, not one or the other).

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

There are also a couple that have a reservation for the Lyriq, and Mach E, a Tesla Y, a Ford Lightning, and a Silverado EV, and plan to take whichever one comes first. Really? Pick a horse and ride it dude.

Well, therein lies the problem. There aren't any horses available for you to pick and ride. Which stable will get you a horse first? If getting a car soonest is more important that which particular brand/model, it makes sense to put in multiple reservations for all the models the person cross-shopped.

Just about everything I've read in this thread is mirrored on some other car forums - people are going through the same ordering issues with other brands.

I've read a lot of threads where the customer wanted to 'support his local dealership' and got screwed, or put all their eggs in one basket. Quite a few of those people only joined forums like this, after their dealer went back on their agreement. Many people who did their research before ordering, and relying on forums like this, had trouble-free transactions.

When I decided to order a C8 in 2019, I joined a couple of Corvette forums, and looked at their 'verified dealers setting at MSRP' lists. Contacted a couple, and put my name on their lists. These were just waiting lists, and allocations were not guaranteed. At the time, they were both sure that they'd get their allocations. I was transparent with them and told them that I was on two lists - both were ok with that, since the waiting lists exceeded the predicted allocations, and if I dropped off, then someone else would get bumped up. They agreed that the first one to get me an allocation would get my business.

Then the GM strike happened. Then COVID. At the end, one came through with an allocation for me; one didn't. If I had only put my name on one list, I may not have gotten my car.

What's surprising was that both dealerships had refundable deposits to get on the waiting lists, but never took those deposits. I was never charged that deposit until I got an allocation and it was time to place the actual order with GM. The deposit then counted towards the cost of the car. I did get paperwork from both stating the car would be sold to me at MSRP. I waited 14 months for that car.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by shiumai

Well, therein lies the problem. There aren't any horses available for you to pick and ride....

The thing is that with most of the ones I mentioned, you actually have an order number for a vehicle, you just may not have a firm build/delivery order yet or it may not be "tomorrow".

For example, the Lyriq pre-orders are basically confirmed orders with an order number. The final order (optional equipment, etc) will be finalized in August and you will get a vehicle during the 2023 model year. Mind you, the when is in question, but not the "if". That's a little different than the Toyota situation (which I agree makes no sense).

I'm with you on it not being an issue for the dealers, they are going to sell every car they get, and it seems they are working within the parameters they are given.

Even with the Lyriq there is an allocation discussion with it being based on some 60/40 split between dealer volume and pre-orders where people ask for a specific dealer. Since some folks (like me) ordered it online to a specific dealer, and others tried to order it directly through the dealer thinking that gave them some advantage, I suppose it makes sense. (BTW, it didn't really give them the advantage. I was able to order mine 24 hours before the dealers could place an order through their system because I had signed up with Cadillac as having an interest)

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by shiumai

Well, therein lies the problem. There aren't any horses available for you to pick and ride. Which stable will get you a horse first? If getting a car soonest is more important that which particular brand/model, it makes sense to put in multiple reservations for all the models the person cross-shopped.

Just about everything I've read in this thread is mirrored on some other car forums - people are going through the same ordering issues with other brands.

I've read a lot of threads where the customer wanted to 'support his local dealership' and got screwed, or put all their eggs in one basket. Quite a few of those people only joined forums like this, after their dealer went back on their agreement. Many people who did their research before ordering, and relying on forums like this, had trouble-free transactions.

When I decided to order a C8 in 2019, I joined a couple of Corvette forums, and looked at their 'verified dealers setting at MSRP' lists. Contacted a couple, and put my name on their lists. These were just waiting lists, and allocations were not guaranteed. At the time, they were both sure that they'd get their allocations. I was transparent with them and told them that I was on two lists - both were ok with that, since the waiting lists exceeded the predicted allocations, and if I dropped off, then someone else would get bumped up. They agreed that the first one to get me an allocation would get my business.

Then the GM strike happened. Then COVID. At the end, one came through with an allocation for me; one didn't. If I had only put my name on one list, I may not have gotten my car.

What's surprising was that both dealerships had refundable deposits to get on the waiting lists, but never took those deposits. I was never charged that deposit until I got an allocation and it was time to place the actual order with GM. The deposit then counted towards the cost of the car. I did get paperwork from both stating the car would be sold to me at MSRP. I waited 14 months for that car.

Agreed. I'll expound further though. Nothing wrong with maximizing your own odds to get the car you want, and there's always some unforeseen consequences to every action, but I don't really see fault in that.

My irritation though are with people who want something because other people also want it. Your example is spot on with someone willing to change what they want, somewhat significantly, to get something sooner.

To echo your point, in the Porsche community, many people buy the sport bucket seats because they know the resale value of those seats. But let's be honest, they are terrible seats to live with in every situation except the track, and even then it isn't like the seat upgrade is a make or break situation. But you need to have the sport buckets, need the chrono package (well maybe not so much that), etc.

Essentially people are recognizing that there's an opportunity for a flex that may end up costing them nothing, heck maybe even make money. A great example of this is the Rolex market, everyone wants to buy a steel sports watch because they know they can park their money in it, enjoy it, and then sell it on.

It's a prudent approach, but it's irritating for the people who just want the damn car. Like I wonder how many people on wait lists for a twin are also on the wait list for the GRC, or Z, or even a manual Supra? And I suspect that many of them aren't planning to buy multiple vehicles.

I just wish people bought what they truly wanted, but I guess everyone's self worth needs to be validated by others' admiration.

[autosenses]

Got a call out of nowhere from a dealer I called a few weeks back to inquire on a listed GR. Long story short the original customer did not want the car so he called me. I put a deposit immediately. I did not wake up this morning thinking I was getting something.

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

To echo your point, in the Porsche community, many people buy the sport bucket seats because they know the resale value of those seats.

I'm with you on this. I've never purchased a vehicle with resale value or ease in mind, and have modified them as I wished, to suit my own taste. I've never thought about what 'the next owner' would like.

It's a free country, but yeah, I do get irritated as well by the people who purchase cars to flip and make a quick profit, vs. those who buy to enjoy and own the car for a while. Maybe that's why I can only afford that I can afford - I'm not business/profit minded enough, lol.

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by shiumai

I'm with you on this. I've never purchased a vehicle with resale value or ease in mind, and have modified them as I wished, to suit my own taste. I've never thought about what 'the next owner' would like.

It's a free country, but yeah, I do get irritated as well by the people who purchase cars to flip and make a quick profit, vs. those who buy to enjoy and own the car for a while. Maybe that's why I can only afford that I can afford - I'm not business/profit minded enough, lol.

Yeah, like you said end of the day free country, but it is absolutely irritating.

[Arthur-A]

I hate those type of people. They're plague. Nothing but money on their mind, no passion, no nothing.

[mistople]

I've been chatting with various dealers in my area. None of them seem able to take an order like I'm able to do so for a BRZ. Does it just depend on the dealer?

I'm trying to get an order in for a 2023. Not really in any rush. But the best I've got so far is "we can email you when we see one coming in".

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by mistople

I've been chatting with various dealers in my area. None of them seem able to take an order like I'm able to do so for a BRZ. Does it just depend on the dealer?

I'm trying to get an order in for a 2023. Not really in any rush. But the best I've got so far is "we can email you when we see one coming in".

If the dealer told you that, they plan to mark up any car they get an allocation for. Find a dealer that will put in a "preference order" for what you want with agreed terms. This will unfortunately mean an indefinite wait without ETA until they get an allocation which will be anywhere from 1 to ∞ months.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by mistople

I've been chatting with various dealers in my area. None of them seem able to take an order like I'm able to do so for a BRZ. Does it just depend on the dealer?

I'm trying to get an order in for a 2023. Not really in any rush. But the best I've got so far is "we can email you when we see one coming in".

You can factory order any Toyota product except the GR86.
There has never been any real explanation why it is an exception but it has to have something to do with the fact that they buy them from Subaru. Their build to order system must just not apply so you have to take whatever allotment that each dealer receives.

Even though none of their "order now" advertising specifically excludes the 86 it is never, ever shown.

[mistople]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You can factory order any Toyota product except the GR86.
There has never been any real explanation why it is an exception but it has to have something to do with the fact that they buy them from Subaru. Their build to order system must just not apply so you have to take whatever allotment that each dealer receives.

Even though none of their "order now" advertising specifically excludes the 86 it is never, ever shown.

Argh, that's frustrating. Maybe I'm just seeing people putting their name down for when one finally comes through the system. My local dealers won't even really let me do that.

Originally Posted by fredzy

If the dealer told you that, they plan to mark up any car they get an allocation for. Find a dealer that will put in a "preference order" for what you want with agreed terms. This will unfortunately mean an indefinite wait without ETA until they get an allocation which will be anywhere from 1 to ∞ months.

May as well just wait for when things calm down a bit. Still such a tough car market.