Open Source Flex Fuel

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

Kinda. To at least attempt to be carb compliant you not modify any emissions systems. Both evap and secondary 02 are both emissions related. so tampering with them is a automatic none compliance. adding the flex fuel sensor to do so would bring us closer to get a flex fuel allowed. Then the final step would just be if any company want to sell one with a carb number to make it official. and bam!

Got it. I was just wondering if you were actually working on a carb compliant kit or just trying not to trip anything to do with EVAP readiness.

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Got it. I was just wondering if you were actually working on a carb compliant kit or just trying not to trip anything to do with EVAP readiness.

well in its most basic form i dont want to touch any part of code that involves monitors/anything else involved with those.

straight up just flex fuel. Plus wiring will be much much easier.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

Hi guys! ive been trying to see if i can make a CARB compliant Open source flex fuel sensor. inputs the 50hz-150hz. currently i have something that can already output a 0-5v output analog signal. and made a board that can output to canbus too. What im thinking is something that can work but i just need someone thats familiar with coding for this. I want to make it carb compliant so we cant hijack any other inputs. what i did notice here:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=90692&page=4
Post #51 by @ztan . That the ECU have a larger amount of IDs it can get info from then from what the car can signals actually have. Ive already reversed engineered all can bus signals. I noticed that some like hex ID 0x149 or 0x14A are not actually ever transmitted within the car.

So my thought is this: IF instead of grabbing the 16 bit ram value for the 02 or evap, could it be possible of grabbing it the exact same data but from any of the bytes that come from the mailboxes of those can id packets? So the only thing really needed is replacing the ram value (theoretically ) of the routine.

This should also theoretically make it compatible with 17+ cars since if those files also have similar ID. All we need is to inject the canbus signals and those ecus will also get it to work.

Can anyone confirm or see if im heading in the right direction. Also to be clear, the hardware is done and its open. Firmware is technically done. Can be used in analog form but i want to make it carb compliant.
@steve99 if you think this is possible i can DM you for a factory tune with just FF added to it?

Open Source and CARB compliant are mutually exclusive.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

Kinda. To at least attempt to be carb compliant you not modify any emissions systems. Both evap and secondary 02 are both emissions related. so tampering with them is a automatic none compliance. adding the flex fuel sensor to do so would bring us closer to get a flex fuel allowed. Then the final step would just be if any company want to sell one with a carb number to make it official. and bam!

This has been considered by many folks, many times, but unfortunately, the market just won't bear the cost of such a setup.

Unfortunately, getting CARB excemption is neither cheap nor fast.

Source: CSG does CARB consultation for other companies, including developing code/calibration and getting parts/vehicles through the CARB process, and has done so successfully.

PM if you want to discuss further, and I'll break down why it's likely just not really viable.

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Open Source and CARB compliant are mutually exclusive.

well open source *hardware*. to make it carb compliant a company would need to go hough the steps in california. Ive worked with a company before to get something else for these cars but i know that part can be tedious. but im willing to give my work away in both designing the board and getting a rom file capable of doing so if needed.

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This has been considered by many folks, many times, but unfortunately, the market just won't bear the cost of such a setup.

Unfortunately, getting CARB excemption is neither cheap nor fast.

Source: CSG does CARB consultation for other companies, including developing code/calibration and getting parts/vehicles through the CARB process, and has done so successfully.

PM if you want to discuss further, and I'll break down why it's likely just not really viable.

oh! so yeah looks like you've gone through all this work too then. but anyways it will be free for any company to be up for it. if they want it.

well first step i want to even check if its possible to even add the sensor via canbus. based on what ive seen in the asm code. if its not possible i guess i still have the hardware open for anyone to use.

EDIT: @CSG Mike you may be right so i will just calll my project "canbus enabled" Flex fuel sensor then. im trying to look for a Proof of Concept...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Open Source and CARB compliant are mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't call it mutually exclusive. More like financially irresponsible

I haven't had to do vehicle emission testing, just component. It gets stupid expensive really quick.

[FR-S2GT86]

So what @geraldjust is trying to do, is what I was interested in doing a few pages back: wanting to find an alternate way to connect the flex-fuel ethanol content signal to the ECU so that we don't have to hijack the O2, evap pressure sensor, or MAF sensor, and so that the kit will not make the vehicle emissions non-compliant within the US. Post #93 https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=94751&page=7

I believe the possibility of successfully completing this could be the BASIS for any other third party to come in and go through the proper procedures to make the kit CARB compliant.

Basically, he wants to see if he can actually get it to work properly, not really get it CARB certified at the moment.

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86

So what @geraldjust is trying to do, is what I was interested in doing a few pages back: wanting to find an alternate way to connect the flex-fuel ethanol content signal to the ECU so that we don't have to hijack the O2, evap pressure sensor, or MAF sensor, and so that the kit will not make the vehicle emissions non-compliant within the US. Post #93 https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=94751&page=7

I believe the possibility of successfully completing this could be the BASIS for any other third party to come in and go through the proper procedures to make the kit CARB compliant.

Basically, he wants to see if he can actually get it to work properly, not really get it CARB certified at the moment.

yup 100% trying to see if its possible in the first place. but by the looks of it i think it can be done. i know it would require a bit more on the input signal to do so as we translate it to can but i know that part can be done. Im have worked with a company in the past to get something though CARB and i know its a pain in the add and alot of money. my goal i guess is to have a proof of concept it can even be done. And if i company want to use the knowledge to make a kit. Cool i will even design their board if they want haha. This kind of thing has been done before : https://www.cobbtuning.com/nissan-gtr-can-gateway/
So im sure it can be adapted. i just would need someone who's familiar with the assembly code in this ecu to work with.

[FR-S2GT86]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

yup 100% trying to see if its possible in the first place. but by the looks of it i think it can be done. i know it would require a bit more on the input signal to do so as we translate it to can but i know that part can be done. Im have worked with a company in the past to get something though CARB and i know its a pain in the add and alot of money. my goal i guess is to have a proof of concept it can even be done. And if i company want to use the knowledge to make a kit. Cool i will even design their board if they want haha. This kind of thing has been done before : https://www.cobbtuning.com/nissan-gtr-can-gateway/
So im sure it can be adapted. i just would need someone who's familiar with the assembly code in this ecu to work with.

Yeah, I am of the mindset that ANYTHING can be achieved if you invest the proper time and resources. With the help of one other member here, I solved the problem of poor audio quality in the '19-'20 86 with the Harman head units a few months back, but coding is beyond my skills. However, I am with you that this idea is plausible.

All of the current flex-fuel kits have the one downside to them that you must hijack one of the three existing sensor inputs which pretty much renders your vehicle illegal for public road use.

Are you considering using one of the existing kits which outputs a 0 to 5-volt signal, taking that signal and converting it to a signal that you're needing for your project, or are you starting out with a completely different signal altogether?

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86

Yeah, I am of the mindset that ANYTHING can be achieved if you invest the proper time and resources. With the help of one other member here, I solved the problem of poor audio quality in the '19-'20 86 with the Harman head units a few months back, but coding is beyond my skills. However, I am with you that this idea is plausible.

All of the current flex-fuel kits have the one downside to them that you must hijack one of the three existing sensor inputs which pretty much renders your vehicle illegal for public road use.

Are you considering using one of the existing kits which outputs a 0 to 5-volt signal, taking that signal and converting it to a signal that you're needing for your project, or are you starting out with a completely different signal altogether?

Exactly. And oh no, i already made a board that inputs a traditional 50-150hz and out put a 0-5v signal. i can program it to .5-4.5v all that is easy. i even made it to output via CANBUS. So i can set whatever id , or format the data however i want. 8 bit wide or 16 bit. etc... its unlimitedly configurable. i even reversed engineered the whole can network. Because of this i know their are some IDs that the roms still read into ram, BUT the ecus dont do anything with them. and in the current cars, those ID are not used. so this means if the rom if programmed properly it can be done.
My theory is that originally how this thread looks like they read the ram value . but instead of doing so from the evap / o2 16bit data. I can just point the ram value to whatever ID/data byte we want.

EDIT: so yes it can do the traditional 0-5. but that will be more to diagnose. But my goal is to still have it canbus enabled.

[FR-S2GT86]

Originally Posted by geraldjust

Exactly. And oh no, i already made a board that inputs a traditional 50-150hz and out put a 0-5v signal. i can program it to .5-4.5v all that is easy. i even made it to output via CANBUS. So i can set whatever id , or format the data however i want. 8 bit wide or 16 bit. etc... its unlimitedly configurable. i even reversed engineered the whole can network. Because of this i know their are some IDs that the roms still read into ram, BUT the ecus dont do anything with them. and in the current cars, those ID are not used. so this means if the rom if programmed properly it can be done.
My theory is that originally how this thread looks like they read the ram value . but instead of doing so from the evap / o2 16bit data. I can just point the ram value to whatever ID/data byte we want.

EDIT: so yes it can do the traditional 0-5. but that will be more to diagnose. But my goal is to still have it canbus enabled.

I don't see that this company has any specific experience with the FA-20 engines or the twins platform, but it appears that they have plenty of experience with the CAN BUS of some of the other Subaru engines out there. You might give them a call to inquire with your project.

https://www.iwireservices.com/

https://www.iwireservices.com/blog/categories/diy

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86

So what @geraldjust is trying to do, is what I was interested in doing a few pages back: wanting to find an alternate way to connect the flex-fuel ethanol content signal to the ECU so that we don't have to hijack the O2, evap pressure sensor, or MAF sensor, and so that the kit will not make the vehicle emissions non-compliant within the US. Post #93 https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=94751&page=7

I believe the possibility of successfully completing this could be the BASIS for any other third party to come in and go through the proper procedures to make the kit CARB compliant.

Basically, he wants to see if he can actually get it to work properly, not really get it CARB certified at the moment.

It's unbelievably ridiculous that making your car burn cleaner makes it non-compliant.

The whole country needs to go to sniffer test only... Commufornia is absolutely pathetic in its attempt at totalitarian control.

Jaden

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by Jaden

It's unbelievably ridiculous that making your car burn cleaner makes it non-compliant.

The whole country needs to go to sniffer test only... Commufornia is absolutely pathetic in its attempt at totalitarian control.

Jaden

its not a california thing. Although i agree about E85 in general that sentiment. i do believe smog test and emissions are a important for the country and the world in general. Thats why we moved from leaded gas to unleaded, why we banned certain detergents in fuels too. Not just for the health of the "environment" but for actual people. Anyone who has asma would know that the have a really bad time when their around a catless car.. etc.. pipe sniffers are not only more expensive and that gets passed on to the consumer. When doing a dino/tail test they need to also have a special gas needed that can get very expensive. Simple and cheap solutions to see if the if the efficiency of a cat for it, OBD2 testing was a huge win for the consumer and the little guys as cars became more powerful/computerized that more complicated computers to read any problems with cars. Not only because anyone can use normal tools to pull most data from the car, but you can tell many things for repairing or even flashing cars.

Other states emission may vary too. Remember freedom is only freedom until your actions affect others. At that point freedom will always have some restrictions. Its just a fact of life in general.