all motor any chance?

[phobos512]

@Turdinator someone say cams?

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/hks-...-brz-1940.html

I'm sure more will be forthcoming

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by phobos512

@Turdinator someone say cams?

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/hks-...-brz-1940.html

I'm sure more will be forthcoming

Yeah i am fairly sure those are for FI setups but at least they are available

[Snake]

Originally Posted by celek

My block is done,
Just ordered my 13:1 pistons
I have my crank.
Total displacement with be 2.3ltrs

https://www.facebook.com/BlueMisairuBRZ

Very interested in how you go with this. Finally someone is putting their money where their mouth is and doing the R&D to see what the FA20 can do without a turbo strapped on!

[GT86_PRAGUE]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Why does this matter when you're making double the power an NA car would at that RPM range at a far lower RPM?

True, but when you get spanked by someone that spent far far less than you it's gonna suck...

You can make more power with FI on a stock motor than you'll make on a fully built NA motor, so your argument is without merit.

I want only to rev higher. I dont care that with turbo/SC I dont have to. Thats not what I want. My needs/wants are diferent than yours, live with that.
I would me on FI thread if I want to discuss about FI.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by GT86_PRAGUE

I want only to rev higher. I dont care that with turbo/SC I dont have to. Thats not what I want. My needs/wants are diferent than yours, live with that.
I would me on FI thread if I want to discuss about FI.

Why do you want to rev higher? You can already increase the limit safely a bit, but power is already starting to drop at the factory limit. Dunno if anyone has tested what the bottleneck is at that RPM yet (cams, valve float, head flow, intake manifold, etc).

I prefer broader power bands instead of peaky. If I wanted peaky, I'd get an RX-8...

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Poodles

I prefer broader power bands instead of peaky. If I wanted peaky, I'd get an RX-8...

Exactly! That is what you want!

[celek]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Yeah i am fairly sure those are for FI setups but at least they are available

Yes they are very weak on specs and the dyno HKS has shown is for the HKS SC with those cams and the stroker kit.
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/en/produc...ngine/db/15662

Originally Posted by phobos512

@Turdinator someone say cams?

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/hks-...-brz-1940.html

I'm sure more will be forthcoming

Over priced for the power gained, don't get me wrong I support HKS but these cams are designed for use in a stock head with stock springs. Not a race or full build application.

Originally Posted by Turdinator

How did this become a turbo vs NA thread? There are plenty of those already.

OP, to my mind the biggest piece of the puzzle we are missing for an "all motor" build is cams and maybe intake manifolds. We have built blocks available, we have heads, large valves, a great selection of tuning methods and headers as far as the eye can see.

eg. You could get a fairly good setup together with Element Tuning heads and block, custom ground cams, motec M150, PTuning or JDL 4-1 headers (depending on the shape of torque curve you want) and of course supporting work on the intake side, port matching and big throttle body, Skunk2, Grimmspeed or Perrin big MAF intake... That is off the top of my head and I am not going to add up the cost of that list

On the subject of ground cams these lobes are direct drive on the rocker to top of the valve. The only way to do this is to weld on the cam and regrind which in the past has resulted in low milage reliability before the cams wear back down to the original surface.

[redlined600]

Originally Posted by airjonny

Will we see 220whp without E-85? Can it be done?

If I had to guess, Yes. Will it be cheap or easy, likely not.

Same thing happened in the Miata world, for the longest time no one believed that the engine could make power N/A. Then people started mixing and matching parts, boring engines, porting heads, stand alone engine management and BAM, there was plenty of power to be had with road maps to get one there.

I suspect that the power won't come quickly, cheaply or easily but it will come.

Interested to see what @celek 's engine makes.

[celek]

Originally Posted by redlined600

If I had to guess, Yes. Will it be cheap or easy, likely not.

Same thing happened in the Miata world, for the longest time no one believed that the engine could make power N/A. Then people started mixing and matching parts, boring engines, porting heads, stand alone engine management and BAM, there was plenty of power to be had with road maps to get one there.

I suspect that the power won't come quickly, cheaply or easily but it will come.

Interested to see what @celek 's engine makes.

Thanks

My Last major build was in 2001 Lasted 60k hard redline miles before I sold the car.
It was a Honda as that was the car at the time. 258WHP All motor 2.0ltr Civic on 91 Octane 12.38:1 CR But I had Cams available Putting some of my oldschool tricks into this engine as well

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by celek

On the subject of ground cams these lobes are direct drive on the rocker to top of the valve. The only way to do this is to weld on the cam and regrind which in the past has resulted in low milage reliability before the cams wear back down to the original surface.

I have no experience with rockers so forgive me if this is a stupid question. If you grind the cams down can you not just increase the size of the shim to accommodate the new base circle diameter?

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

I have no experience with rockers so forgive me if this is a stupid question. If you grind the cams down can you not just increase the size of the shim to accommodate the new base circle diameter?

There isn't a shim. You basically have a roller rocker that is pinched between the cam lobe, the valve stem cap, and a hydraulic lash adjuster. As the valve train ages and wears, the HLA pushes further out to eat up any lash (space between the lobe base circle, roller rocker, and valve stem cap). No lash = no tapping, so the engine still sounds pleasant at 200k miles. Also, there is no shim measuring required so it is easier to originally manufacture and a valve job is simpler if you had to do one down the road.



This image is from a 2GR-FSE (IS350), so you can get a good look at the roller rocker valve train and the D4-S.

Back to your original question, the HLA should automatically accommodate the ground cam. You are trading some of your future wear tolerance, though. Maybe not enough to be a problem.

Sent from Tandy 400

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by celek

On the subject of ground cams these lobes are direct drive on the rocker to top of the valve. The only way to do this is to weld on the cam and regrind which in the past has resulted in low milage reliability before the cams wear back down to the original surface.

So long as the welding is done correctly and the cams are re-hardened, it's not an issue.

Originally Posted by redlined600

If I had to guess, Yes. Will it be cheap or easy, likely not.

Same thing happened in the Miata world, for the longest time no one believed that the engine could make power N/A. Then people started mixing and matching parts, boring engines, porting heads, stand alone engine management and BAM, there was plenty of power to be had with road maps to get one there.

I suspect that the power won't come quickly, cheaply or easily but it will come.

Interested to see what @celek 's engine makes.

ITB's was the secret in the Miata, dunno about this engine.

Originally Posted by Quentin

There isn't a shim. You basically have a roller rocker that is pinched between the cam lobe, the valve stem cap, and a hydraulic lash adjuster. As the valve train ages and wears, the HLA pushes further out to eat up any lash (space between the lobe base circle, roller rocker, and valve stem cap). No lash = no tapping, so the engine still sounds pleasant at 200k miles. Also, there is no shim measuring required so it is easier to originally manufacture and a valve job is simpler if you had to do one down the road.



This image is from a 2GR-FSE (IS350), so you can get a good look at the roller rocker valve train and the D4-S.

Back to your original question, the HLA should automatically accommodate the ground cam. You are trading some of your future wear tolerance, though. Maybe not enough to be a problem.

Sent from Tandy 400

Hmm... You could theoretically make a new rocker that was larger to account for the regrind. But it would still be more effective to just have all new cams.

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by Quentin

There isn't a shim. You basically have a roller rocker that is pinched between the cam lobe, the valve stem cap, and a hydraulic lash adjuster. As the valve train ages and wears, the HLA pushes further out to eat up any lash (space between the lobe base circle, roller rocker, and valve stem cap). No lash = no tapping, so the engine still sounds pleasant at 200k miles. Also, there is no shim measuring required so it is easier to originally manufacture and a valve job is simpler if you had to do one down the road.



This image is from a 2GR-FSE (IS350), so you can get a good look at the roller rocker valve train and the D4-S.

Back to your original question, the HLA should automatically accommodate the ground cam. You are trading some of your future wear tolerance, though. Maybe not enough to be a problem.

Sent from Tandy 400

Are you sure the FA20 has HLA? I was under the impression it doesn't.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...6539244&type=3

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Are you sure the FA20 has HLA? I was under the impression it doesn't.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...6539244&type=3

It looks like it does. The top row of roller rockers are sitting the on the valve stem cap in the picture your linked. The bottom row has a circular shape. That is the cup where the top of the roller rocker sits. Also, the webbing/casting that runs horizontally from valve to valve to valve at the spherical location is an oil galley to keep the oil supplied to the HLA should it leak down any. The 2GR-FE engines look identical when you pop a valve cover.

edit: is Crawford saying that they changed to solid lifters or solid lifters are standard? I suppose Subaru could have shimmed the bottom of the solid lifters or have different heigh lifters to get rid of the lash... but that seems expensive compared to just using HLAs that don't require measuring equipment or stocking tons of different measurement lifters lineside. It certainly is the same setup, looks wise, as what I've seen on Toyota/Subaru roller rocker valvetrains. If they are solid, you'd have to shim the solid lifter to accommodate a change in the cam lobe base circle versus what I said about the HLA accommodating. There are definitely some concerns about HLAs and overrevving if the HLA can collapse too easily, so maybe they've opted to go solid.