Official Formula 1 thread

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

F1 could benefit from this type of system giving equal budgets to everyone, but creative freedom on how to use it. That way, backmarker and midfield teams have a chance to do just as well as teams who currently spend triple digit millions every season. Just a thought.... If nothing changes, Mercedes will just be the next Red Bull, and everyone else is left fighting for table scraps.

except that...

unlike Football, F1 racing has a very poor mentorship program.

THere is no such thing as highschool Formula 1, College Formula 1, backyard-Formula 1, chilling on the beach throwing the ball around Formula 1.

There are those kids whose families could afford to get them into the karts, then into the F-series levels, and so on and so forth.

Remind me again how much Schumacher had to pay out of his own pocket to get a seat in an F1 car?


The culture of support just isn't there, so until karting becomes an after-school activity any kid can participate in, we're not gonna see anything of the sort.

[Superhatch]

Originally Posted by torqdork

Edit:

You're right. Nothing in F1 has ever been applied to road cars, and nothing in expensive cars ever trickles down to affordable cars.

VVT came from 1980's motorcycles? I don't understand.

"Dunlop’s development of caliper-type disc brakes for the Jaguar C-Type racer in 1953 that pushed the braking format we know today into the mainstream. They were reliable, dependable, and infinitely more effective than the then-ubiquitous drums; Jaguar’s victories at Le Mans were more than enough to convince manufacturers that this was the way to go for road cars."

Ok...so not from F1, my mistake. But my point still holds that the innovations in F1 (and other top end race series) do trickle down to mainstream cars. The new Alfa C4 uses a carbon fiber chassis...that's not due to the advances and common use in racing that made that possible? At the very least F1 tech trickles down to other racing series, which trickles down to mainstream cars.

FYI that's a 50K car with a carbon fiber tub...These things will be in mid-range cars in 10 years.

You will see a 30-40K turbo 4cyl hybrid car (ala Mclaren P1) on the road in 10 years.

[torqdork]

^ You wrote: "VVT (Honda developed VTEC in F1)"

Honda's first VTEC application was the 1983 CBR400 motorcycle.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by torqdork

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....n=sbs&id=33907

Realistically, I get closer to the city rating during my DD's in the foothills here, about 21-22 mpg, spot on the EPA city rating. That also compares favorably with Corvette's city rating of 17 mpg and both require premium fuel. I wouldn't call that horrendous for the performance, I'll save that term for my 10-11 mpg 4,400lb. FJ Cruiser M/T over the same roads and for track days where those of us data logging in twins see 8-10 mpg.

But I question your 4hp/lb estimate in cars, maybe in model aircraft. Even the new BMW i3 is a fraction of that (2.5kW/kg) at a little over 1hp/lb. and the LEAF is about half that.

...the capacitive systems don't appear ready for mass market production yet. They've produced Atkinson cycle ICE's with variable lift and timing for years.

The problem with the EPA cycle is it can be very different or very close to real world based on car and driving style. All I'm going to say here is, if your FRS can only get 22mpg on that road, a Corvette is not going to get 17 just based on the higher curb weight alone.

As for the electric motors thing, okay 2.5kW/kg is 1.2kW/lb or 2.5hp/lb, which isn't far off, but I guess 4hp/lb isn't as easy as I made it sound. The permanent magnet motors in the Leaf and Prius have very low maximum speed limits and if I understand correctly the maximum rotational speed is more or less what determines the power output as the torque limits are hit very easily. The Tesla Roadster's motor is hand wound but it has 288hp for a bit over 4hp/lb, but if you look at the published torque curves it seems like that number is power electronics limited because the hp is constant past a certain point (whereas if it were mechanical strength limited, you wouldn't have to reduce the torque that much).

The capacitative systems are close but probably not ready. Taiyo Yuden and such kept on announcing the production of hybrid capacitors a few years back, and nowadays you can buy them online, but they aren't much better than the traditional ultracapacitors.

Also Toyota definitely has not produced variable lift engines for years, the only ones have been the 2ZZ-GE, and recent 1ZR-FAE/2ZR-FAE/3ZR-FAE. Everything since 97 has had VVTi on at least the intake cam though, but so has every other manufacturer... That said their Atkinson cycle strategy could work well; The 2GR-FXE is rated 247hp (much healthier than the 1NZ-FXE in terms of hp/L), and can probably make more power if you spin it faster. It's a nice solution because it's very cheap compared to turbo + smaller engine, but if that smaller engine is say a BMW N20 or even a Honda R18 you're going to lag on efficiency.

Originally Posted by torqdork

Honda's first VTEC application was the 1983 CBR400 motorcycle.

Depends on your definition of VTEC. That "VTEC" was just shutting off one of the two intake tracts, which is inferior to even a cam phasing system. Toyota had it too on the 4A-GE.

That aside, F1 doesn't seem to be the best way to develop production car relevant things. Yes new rules force them to figure out how to build certain things certain ways but there isn't much room for getting creative when the entire powertrain is basically specified for you, minus some tweaking of materials here and there. I don't know if VTEC really came from F1 but I kind of doubt it seeing how fixed camshafts was part of the rules for so long.

[rice_classic]

I think (meaning I did no googling) that Honda didn't have a need to develop VTEC in F1 because A) VTEC is meaningless in a straight purpose race car (that's why VTEC-Killer cams exist), B) I'm not sure the rules would have allowed multi-lobe cams.

VTEC has no application in a race car. VTEC's big claim to fame is that a STREET car could have the best of both worlds: low-rpm verifiability while meeting emissions and getting great MPG's while also having a racing oriented aggressive cam profile for higher RPM's allowing the engine to make power in an RPM range higher than the smaller cam profile would allow. It was like having a street engine and a race engine in 1.

On a race track, you only need the race engine.

[rice_classic]

IN F1 NEWS...


Sweet sweet merciful irony BATMAN!
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/150031.html

Ferrari and Mercedes defend and back the FIA in the face of the RedBull DQ appeal.

Buwahhahahah!

RedBull wants to throw Ferrari and Mercedes under the bus for Tire Testing in the 2013 season, there should be no surprise that Merc and Ferrari show up to the FIA and say, "Yeah, fuck those RedBull guys."

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

except that...

unlike Football, F1 racing has a very poor mentorship program.

THere is no such thing as highschool Formula 1, College Formula 1, backyard-Formula 1, chilling on the beach throwing the ball around Formula 1.

There are those kids whose families could afford to get them into the karts, then into the F-series levels, and so on and so forth.

Remind me again how much Schumacher had to pay out of his own pocket to get a seat in an F1 car?


The culture of support just isn't there, so until karting becomes an after-school activity any kid can participate in, we're not gonna see anything of the sort.

My point was more about prize money than anything else. According to autoweek, all teams do get a small piece, but tjethe big names get significantly more.

The 63-percent prize money payment is comprised of three elements. The first is a 47.5 percent share of F1's operating profits which is divided into two with half going to the top 10 equally and the other split between them depending on their position in the standings.
However, in addition, Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull Racing share a dedicated annual prize fund of at least $100 million. This is because they are what are known as Constructors' Championship Bonus (CCB) teams -- the top three teams based on races won in the four seasons prior to 2012. As the only team which has been in F1 since the series was born in 1950, Ferrari also gets its own further annual prize payment of at least $62.2 million.
This puts the lower-ranking teams in the top 10 at a financial disadvantage even though they last year received $28 million which is far from insignificant. The reason it isn't enough is that the teams employ a business model which is unusual to say the least.

So while money doesn't automatically equal success, lack of money almost guarantees failure. Just ask Marussia and Caterham. How long are they going to last fighting for 15th position every race?

This rules shake up has been nice, but it's still the usual suspects in the top constructors spots.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

My point was more about prize money than anything else. According to autoweek, all teams do get a small piece, but tjethe big names get significantly more.

correct me if i'm wrong, but sponsorship dollars would significantly overshadow any race winning payouts.

[Silver Ignition]

Don't mean to stray from the current debate but.......

Does anyone think the next race in Malaysia may be postponed or cancelled due to the missing Boeing and the shitstorm that goes with it? Kinda the way NYC cancelled the marathon because people were still recovering from Hurricane Sandy?

[GTB/ZR-1]

Originally Posted by Silver Ignition

the next race in Malaysia may be postponed or cancelled

Wah?

Bernie Ecclestone will make sure there's 0% chance of that happening...

[FnFast]

Originally Posted by Silver Ignition

Don't mean to stray from the current debate but.......

Does anyone think the next race in Malaysia may be postponed or cancelled due to the missing Boeing and the shitstorm that goes with it? Kinda the way NYC cancelled the marathon because people were still recovering from Hurricane Sandy?

Nah. I don't think so. Stakes are too high.

[headlikeahole]

Ahh yes Malaysia. Multi 21 Seb... multi 21

[torqdork]

Should be a brutal test of the new cooling systems. I think Malaysia is usually the hottest GP of the year.

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by torqdork

Should be a brutal test of the new cooling systems. I think Malaysia is usually the hottest GP of the year.

I would have thought Bahrain, which is right after. Both have a lot of full throttle/high engine demands. Both will be hard on teams and I'm guessing we will probably see just as many retirements as we did in Australia.