Engine Failure (#4 Rod Bearing + Short Block)

[Thorpedo]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Not to insult techs, but a block put back together just isn't reliable as a sealed block from the factory. Once you crack 'em open, they're never the same. Can factory blocks be unreliable? Yes, but the likelihood of that is far lower than a rebuilt block.

This is so far beyond a false statement i don't even know where to start. It is true that the techs in question may have no idea what they are doing, but there are many people out there who can build engines far superior than OEM Subaru. An engine running down an assembly line which has 25 people who are trained to do a simple series of tasks is a process which does not favor an impeccable final product.

Put an engine in front of an experienced, knowledgeable engine builder who does the rebuild start to finish is in my opinion greatly preferable.

"Once you crack 'em open, they're never the same." Lmfao. Rediculous.

[FirestormFRS]

@Porsche...
You have no idea how Toyota views these things. They're not playing some cloak and dagger "what happened" game with this mans car. Toyota doesn't care if it's a $14k Yaris or an $80k LS, when this stuff happens they want to know why.
They mentality of the company is first to find out why by doing a root cause analysis that can take a very long time. They will countermeasure the root cause to keep it from happening again. Yes, I know more about Toyota and the way they do things because I work for them. Yes, I am carrying the company banner. Yes, I do it proudly from the standpoint of knowing why they do things the way they do them versus your cloak and dagger hogwash.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

This is so far beyond a false statement i don't even know where to start. It is true that the techs in question may have no idea what they are doing, but there are many people out there who can build engines far superior than OEM Subaru. An engine running down an assembly line which has 25 people who are trained to do a simple series of tasks is a process which does not favor an impeccable final product.

Put an engine in front of an experienced, knowledgeable engine builder who does the rebuild start to finish is in my opinion greatly preferable.

"Once you crack 'em open, they're never the same." Lmfao. Rediculous.

Hey there partna, Big difference between a block put back together at a dealership and a pro Subaru engine builder. The latter of which are few and far between, bucko. Furthermore, as a general rule of thumb a built block wont be as reliable as a factory block. Are there reliable high mileage built blocks? Yes. Those are the exception. So while you find that notion 'rediculous' it has been backed up by plenty of data you can find on NASIOC.

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

This is so far beyond a false statement i don't even know where to start. It is true that the techs in question may have no idea what they are doing, but there are many people out there who can build engines far superior than OEM Subaru. An engine running down an assembly line which has 25 people who are trained to do a simple series of tasks is a process which does not favor an impeccable final product.

You seem to think that the only quality control aspect of a modern assembly line is the person assembling the engine. You show your ignorance. Every fastener on every engine is accounted for. Every o-ring, gasket, bracket, and clip is accounted for. The modern assembly line will turn out perfectly flawless engines at a rate less than .05% failure rate while building 200k of them a year.


No one engine builder can turn out any single engine better than the OEM simply because they don't have the resources. I can hand assemble any engine you want, but without the controls built in it's way easier to miss something.

[Thorpedo]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Hey there partna, Big difference between a block put back together at a dealership and a pro Subaru engine builder. The latter of which are few and far between, bucko. Furthermore, as a general rule of thumb a built block wont be as reliable as a factory block. Are there reliable high mileage built blocks? Yes. Those are the exception. So while you find that notion 'rediculous' it has been backed up by plenty of data you can find on NASIOC.

That general rule of thumb you outlined there is likely due to the case that a "built" block is designed to withstand at harsher running environment (FI, extended high rpm use, etc), so you're comparing apples to oranges. Under the same conditions non-oem built engines can easily out perform a factory block, as superior machining and parts can be used. The time can also be taken to check many things that the OEM would not on every engine.

@FirestormFRS

You seem to think that the only quality control aspect of a modern assembly line is the person assembling the engine. You show your ignorance. Every fastener on every engine is accounted for. Every o-ring, gasket, bracket, and clip is accounted for. The modern assembly line will turn out perfectly flawless engines at a rate less than .05% failure rate while building 200k of them a year.

You show your ignorance in writing all that under the assumption you made in the first sentence. Which I didn't say was the case whatsoever.

No one engine builder can turn out any single engine better than the OEM simply because they don't have the resources.

If you're talking about designing a platform, you may be right. But saying a single engine that is "better" than OEM is so ambiguous you may as well had left it out. Can a single engine builder make an engine as reliable with superior parts? Yes. Can an single engine builder/machinist machine surfaces to far more stringent specs than OEM? Yes. Can a single engine builder make small changes that sometimes yield respectable performance increases with no real downside? Yes.

....and last but not least.

Can a single engine builder find the weaknesses in the platform and "fix" them? Yes.

You act like OEM is the be-all end-all, which those who have experience in the industry know that is absolutely not the case. Myself included.

[AdrianG]

If you want to see what a backyard mechanic can do to improve on OEM, check out Jafromobile on YouTube. Not for our platform but I've learned a ton from his videos.

I don't mean backyard mechanic as a slight. Many of his projects are literally in his back yard.

- AdrianG

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

As long as there is sufficient pressure at the sensor no low oil pressure/CELs/etc will light up.

With a proper oil pressure gauge you will see the flucuations from a spun bearing.

As a new owner I have been seriously considering adding an oil pressure sensor and gauge to the car. I don't really trust an on/off oil pressure switch connected to an idiot light, and it certainly doesn't give you the amount of information that a real gauge does. I used to be able to tell when my Triumph was a quart low just by how the oil pressure needle moved when I accelerated.

I was really quite surprised that the car was designed without a real pressure gauge. That seems like it ought to be standard equipment on a car aimed at this market.

Originally Posted by vroom4

You expect Perrin to help you fight Toyota....really?

I would expect Perrin to be very concerned that their product is being discussed on an enthusiast's message board as a potential cause of engine failures. Given the opportunity to stand behind their work and state unequivocally that their product did not and would not cause this problem, I would expect them to take it.

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Not to insult techs, but a block put back together just isn't reliable as a sealed block from the factory. Once you crack 'em open, they're never the same. Can factory blocks be unreliable? Yes, but the likelihood of that is far lower than a rebuilt block.

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

This is so far beyond a false statement i don't even know where to start.

This is the first Subaru I've had, but I've been through quite a few vehicles in my life and wouldn't make any assumptions whatsoever, good or bad, about the quality control in an engine factory (with the exception of aircraft engines). One of my trucks (Chevy) had a blown head gasket at 50K miles, which turned out to be a supply chain issue that affected thousands of that model. My parents had an engine issue with their Cadillac. A friend had an engine issue with a BMW. Quality problems happen.

Right now I'm going through an issue with my other car, a Jeep XJ. It turns out that Chrysler used a bad head casting in 1999, 2000 and 2001 that is prone to cracking between the #3 and #4 cylinders. They quietly switched over to a different head in 2001, but there are thousands of these engines still out there that are failing because the cracked head lets water into the oil and causes camshaft bearing failure. This happened anywhere from 40K miles to 160K, and the failure of mine became evident at 160K.

I had the choice of replacing it with a Mopar long block or rebuilt aftermarket. After seeing the quality control issues with that engine (the crack wasn't the only one), I went aftermarket. Because yes, a rebuilt engine in this case would be more reliable than a factory engine.

Would the same thing hold true for a Subaru engine? I don't know. But like I said, I'm not going to assume that the factory engine is assembled any better than one put together by a knowledgeable mechanic in the field.

[Bartley]

2 engines in less than 30,000 miles is worse than an RX8.
Hopefully your third engine is fine and dandy but if the third engine fails again and Toyota doesn't replace your car (though in your previous posts it sounded like they were considering doing so), claim your car as a lemon.

[zohare]

Been through the same exact thing.... SAME THING. Blamed my oil, (I did miss my interval, traveled across the country for work.*sigh*) said it was 2 qts low though... My point was, there was no hole in block, it was low before... if there wasn't a pre existing issue, then it shouldn't have been THAT low. Miss my interval or not.... There are multiple rod bearing failures with wwaaaayyy less miles within scheduled miles. Anyone down to try and collect all these together? It may be helpful. My biggest issue was being unable to prove that it was a fault in mfr process. (dam subarus bottom end issues!!!!)

[regal]

The issue is finding a Subaru engine builder that can match or beat the factory. Can it be done, yes but not as a $3k moil order with forged pistons. Plus its early in the like cycle for a true master FA20 builder to emerge, you have to blow up a few engines before you get it right. Even the factory rebuilds are having trouble. Best bet now is a used long block from a wreck.


The point about the oil gauge can't be stressed enough. We have all these EcuTeks geeks dataloging everything but the most important. There hasn't been one datalog of oil pressure posted on this forum.


I have all the parts to install an e-sender oil guage in the air vent for $100. Its been way to cold here to get out and install it. The supplier doesn't sell it as a kit, but you can piece it together from one aftermarket Subaru internet shop. They aren't a sponsor so I can't post them or the list but a google search snuffed them out in a couple minutes.

[F1point4]

Originally Posted by eriktherod

The stock pulley is not a harmonic balancer/dampener, so the replacement does not need to be.

I believe the stock crank pulley is harmonically balanced and dampened.

[eriktherod]

Originally Posted by F1point4

I believe the stock crank pulley is harmonically balanced and dampened.

I stand corrected. This is from Jeff's Blog @ Perrin Performance:

There is always going to be those asking about the vibration dampener. Yes the stock part has one, yes our part doesn’t. We and many others have proven over the years that going to a solid pulley on an EJ (current WRX/STI engine) is perfectly fine. There are no issues at all doing this. On the new FA/FB engine, because of the balanced nature, and less vibration in its design, we feel the same can be expected. While only time will tell, our current testers have had ZERO issues with them.

I understand this does not make it a non-issue, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions and say he's wrong. I'll definitely contact him about my situation and ask him what his thoughts are.

[Dipstik-sportech]

Yeah people say the same thing about the Honda b series engines and yet I watched my buddies b18 oil pump shatter due to a lightweight dampener less pulley. Upon investigation people do have issues that regularly rev to the redline without one

The Frozen North

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

Yeah people say the same thing about the Honda b series engines and yet I watched my buddies b18 oil pump shatter due to a lightweight dampener less pulley. Upon investigation people do have issues that regularly rev to the redline without one

The Frozen North

Agreed.. The dampener is there for a reason. I'm sure the OEM wouldn't have included one if they didn't think it was necessary. They too are looking for more hp, less weight and better mileage.
Just because the aftermarket makes it.. Doesn't mean its safe, reliable or worth buying.