Engine Failure (#4 Rod Bearing + Short Block)

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by regal

Yea but your thinking like me...

SHHHH! Not so loud.

The support he's getting from Toyota is unusual

It aroused my curiosity.

I remember a General Motors holding a few hundred torque converters that magically fixed themselves when we ran out back in the early 90's.

That sounds like an interesting story, if you're at liberty to share. I'm guessing you cannot (or should not).

PS Love Pirsig too My old sig:
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed."

-Robert M Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maintenance

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

Unless I missed it, all you folks are missing something big here... The cylinder heads

If I'm not mistaken, they were reused, correct?

In the original post, the mechanic had written that he was to send out the heads for inspection.

What happens when an oil return passage is blocked from the cylinder heads? Admittedly I am not an expert on flat fours, and am unsure of their oil return design, but I do have many years of professional engine building under my belt.

Say the oil return system on at least one of the cylinder heads was partially blocked, you can starve the engine of oil even if it has the proper amount in it. In instances where it is entirely blocked, you can drain the oil and get drastically less than you should, and then find all the oil later on when you disassemble the engine.

That was interesting. Thanks for taking the time to share that -- I learned something.

This adds yet another element to consider in the puzzle.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by andrew20195

I think you're overly paranoid.

I think your reading comprehension skills are exceeded only by your very good manners.

Toyota is interested in this car because they just put an engine in it not two months ago and it's suffered another failure, and they probably want to make sure the dealer isn't trying to pull a fast one with them.

Because you say so?

The first part of your statement is an assertion of FACT. You are a mere line-level employe, a mechanic in a bay in a dealership in nowhere. You know absolutely nothing about what is in the minds of Toyota executives ... any more than you know what is in mine.

The second part is, to put it charitably, a "stretch." Toyota is unlikely to be bringing this kind of attention to this owner's problem "to make sure the dealer isn't trying to pull a fast one with them."

As to how the oil got low, I've seen dealerships with bulk oil controls in the parts department which will cut off oil flow to the gun when it hits a predetermined amount (presumably to keep techs from stealing oil). In such a system, techs will OFTEN assume the parts guy dialed up the correct amount of oil and not check it (which is dumb. I always pull the dipstick after an oil change just to doublecheck myself). So that's a scenario where an oil change could result in only two quarts of oil put into an engine.

How often, kid?

That's a stretch that borders on the absurd to think it applies in this instance, and offers a plausible explanation for what has occurred with this owner's car.

As to the second failure, there have been a decent amount of manufacturing errors with these engines. FHI is having serious growing pains and it unfortunately seems to be affecting their build quality.

Are you privy to special insider information? I wonder what Subaru and Toyota would think about these, arguably, slanderous remarks about their products and processes, remarks that undermine current and future customer confidence.?

[Thorpedo]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Are you privy to special insider information? I wonder what Subaru and Toyota would think about these, arguably, slanderous remarks about their products and processes, remarks that undermine current and future customer confidence.?

You seem like a smart guy, but that's taking it a tad far I would say.

I did see he got the heads checked, but having worked in the automotive machining industry I do know it is rampant with laziness. The gasket surface was probably checked and vacuum tested to make sure it was void of cracks. Typically no special attention is given if it was a bottom end problem, even though the cause could possibly be found in the cylinder heads.

I know it's a long shot, just throwing it out there.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Porsche

SHHHH! Not so loud.

It aroused my curiosity.


That sounds like an interesting story, if you're at liberty to share. I'm guessing you cannot (or should not).

Even though it was 20 years ago GM has more lawyers than they know what to do with so....

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by Porsche

I think your reading comprehension skills are exceeded only by your very good manners.

I assume this is sarcasm? You think someone disagreeing with you is poor manners? Is your skin really so thin? If you look at my post history you'll see that I generally try to be polite and helpful.

You apparently failed to comprehend that this was the second engine installed in this car in two months. Maybe you need to take a look at yourself before you point fingers at the shortcomings of others?

Because you say so?

The first part of your statement is an assertion of FACT. You are a mere line-level employe, a mechanic in a bay in a dealership in nowhere. You know absolutely nothing about what is in the minds of Toyota executives ... any more than you know what is in mine.

What's with the personal attacks? I think it's completely uncalled for.

Not a statement of fact, a statement of opinion based on experience. Just like pretty much every post on these forums.

The dealer replaced an engine due to a failure at low mileage. Two months and less than 4000 miles the new engine suffered a failure. It seems common sense to me that with two engine failures on the same low mileage car so close together, Toyota would want to take a look at it. I've been in this field for 12 years, and had the opportunity to work with Honda and Subaru engineers on several occasions, so I have at least some idea what I'm talking about. Do you honestly disagree? What experience do you have that would contradict that assessment?

The second part is, to put it charitably, a "stretch." Toyota is unlikely to be bringing this kind of attention to this owner's problem "to make sure the dealer isn't trying to pull a fast one with them."

I've heard about some shady things going on at dealerships. I don't know about the reputation of this particular dealer, but it's not out of the realm of possibility, considering they just put a new engine in this car 4000 miles ago!

How often

Doesn't matter how often. This guy's car could have been the 1:1000, or 1:10000 cars it happened to.

That's a stretch that borders on the absurd to think it applies in this instance, and offers a plausible explanation for what has occurred with this owner's car.

Do you have a better explanation as to why the oil was 4 quarts low during the inspection of the original engine failure? Remember, it happened about 2000 miles after an oil change.

Are you privy to special insider information? I wonder what Subaru and Toyota would think about these, arguably, slanderous remarks about their products and processes, remarks that undermine current and future customer confidence.?

It's in print, so the word you're looking for is libelous, not slanderous. And you have a good point, I won't share any more info.

[eriktherod]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Is it yet another engine failure? That's not clear to me, else I missed something you wrote.

I have not read anything yet confirming this. I understand that you strongly suspect this to be a repetition of the first instance, but do we know that? Is it a bearing failure, again? Which one(s)?

Has Toyota specifically told you exactly what is wrong with your engine this time?

Yes, the first engine failure was at 25K miles in January. This is the one with the picture from the dealership invoice. It describes that Rod #4 bearing had spun and caused internal damage ruining the short block.

The second engine failure is the the one I encountered about a week ago at 29K miles.

Speaking of which, I have an update. The dealership called me this afternoon and told me that Toyota is indeed covering the engine failure under warranty again. This time Toyota had regional techs come to investigate the issue (dealership was not allowed beyond basic diagnostics) to verify. The dealership did not have the details of what went wrong, but I will press the Toyota HQ rep who I left a voicemail with.

To me, this is quite telling. The first time Toyota may have just wrote it off without issue. This time however, they wanted to check I hadn't broke it or done something to cause it. I had a bad vibe due to being questioned about "aftermarket parts" and thinking my crank pulley would create resistance from Toyota. It seems that is not the case and I will do my best to investigate this further.

I also believe their "we'll fix it again" answer is inadequate and none of my concerns have been addressed, only the blame has been assigned (to Toyota, not me). I will do my best to get answers, this is a core component of the vehicle, not some side feature like the power windows.

[xwd]

Four quarts is a lot of oil... you would notice a leak that bad. If it burned four quarts of oil you may also notice that by the smell and smoke coming out the tailpipe... Also if it burned four quarts of oil the engine was doomed from the getgo.


As for the second failure hard to say. What kind of oil are you using? I am guessing debris in the oil system, there are little filters for things like the VVTi system which can easily get clogged.

[bobaab]

Originally Posted by eriktherod

so I decided to try to start the car. First attempt failed and it started but stalled soon after. With a sigh of defeat, I tried once more and blipped the throttle to keep it alive, which somehow worked. At this point traffic was building up ahead and people noticed my trouble so they let me limp over the to extreme right shoulder safely. The car at this point could not keep idle and stalled soon after I stopped. The whole time I felt like James May on an unfortunate Top Gear episode, with countless moments I should be saying a British expletive.

I know this feeling all too well. Luckily, I was not on a highway and was on an autocross course. I did three runs in my friend's 91 MR2 and spun the bearings on it. But the difference is that we hit 200k miles on is on the way TO the autocross!

Hope you get it fixed, it shouldn't be a problem you should be having so soon.

[eriktherod]

After Toyota had accepted it as warranty work yet again, I tried to get back in touch with the Toyota HQ rep. Today she finally returned my voicemail (she had been out on sick leave).

As I mentioned, Toyota is covering the repair under warranty. I asked her for the specifics, she said it was #3 rod bearing had spun this time. The previous engine failure was the #4 rod bearing, so I noticed a trend.

I asked her for more details (oil level, etc) which she did not have and told me the service manager at the dealership could tell me more. I am dubious to this because I did ask them previously and they seemed to know very little other than Toyota regional was looking at it. I will have to follow up more here once I pick the car up next week (Wednesday). The dealership did suspect the crank pulley, but noted it was curious that Toyota did not deny warranty work based on it. I am not entirely sold on the crank pulley being the problem.

Toyota did offer me a complimentary 7-year/100k bumper to bumper (not just powertrain) extended warranty on the vehicle. In addition, they offered refunding a single car payment for my troubles (which is not even $400).

Honestly, I was nonplussed about the offer. I explained that while the warranty is nice, it doesn't really instill confidence in the vehicle. I want a reliable car, not a reliable and free mechanic to fix it all the time. When I'm stuck on the side of the road or free-rolling in rush-hour traffic I'm not thinking "well I'm glad this won't cost me a thing to fix." The single car payment bit was hardly anything to consider "reimbursement."

I asked for a replacement vehicle, which I was told cannot be done directly through Toyota. I have to go through a third-party arbitration process which can take up to 40 days. There is also the Lemon Law which I could go through, which likely would take 30 days (but could be done simultaneously).

I began to get a little annoyed while still being respectful to the rep, and she could sense that. I told her the single car payment was a paltry amount for the inconvenience, safety hazard, and potential effects (missing important work meeting, family event, etc). She said that she could do more than just one if it would be agreeable to me, which meant there was definitely room to negotiate.

I am still torn if I want to keep the car (even if I had a replacement). This whole deal is leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth and I'm really not keen on the hassle.

Here are the two options I am considering:

• Fight for the replacement car, trying to have faith that the replacement will not have the same issues.
• Request several car payments refunded as cash, put that towards a down payment on another vehicle.

I have a little equity in my vehicle, so the second option is viable. I've always liked the S2000 and with the weather getting nice here.. it really is tempting.

[OrbitalEllipses]

If you want the car, the solution is an extended warranty and a new longblock. Anything else is foolish considering the number of places a blown engine can hide various objects that will just blow the next block.

[regal]

[quote=andrew20195;1590032]I . You are a mere line-level employe, a mechanic in a bay in a dealership in nowhere. You know absolutely nothing about what is in the minds of Toyota executives ... any more than you know what is in mine.

Originally Posted by andrew20195

What's with the personal attacks? I think it's completely uncalled for.

I really don't consider this a personal attack at all. Auto execs think and strategize completely differently than the value adders doing the actua work. The execs have the board and shareholders to answer to who generally know nothing about the auto industry so some of their decisions may seem really weird. Its all about perspective.


And millions of people in this country would love to have a job as good as a "mechanic in a Toyota dealership Bay", its a job many would be proud to have but don't expect to have the power to call in a jet from corp everytime a systemic or serious issue is found, that's all that being said, not a persona attack the way I see it.

Originally Posted by andrew20195

, Toyota would want to take a look at it. I've been in this field for 12 years, and had the opportunity to work with Honda and Subaru engineers on several occasions, so I have at least some idea what I'm talking about.

Did you see their degree's? OEM's will give a business card to about anyone these days and call them engineers. If its a systemic issue the :real" engineers don't need to fly out to a dealership, they need to interface with other engineers, suppliers, middle managers and present a solution to the root cause.


Most but not all "engineering" visits to dealerships are to negotiate and keep the peace.

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

If you want the car, the solution is an extended warranty and a new longblock. Anything else is foolish considering the number of places a blown engine can hide various objects that will just blow the next block.

Yep I wouldn't settle for less than a Long block with the chain on and everything factory tmed.

[AZFA20]

I just spent 30 minutes writing a rant for this thread but I decided it's probably not worth it. I will say this:

Please understand that not every dealership, technician, regional technician, and anyone associated with an OEM is out to get you guys. More times than not they do genuinely have the customer in mind. They fixed the issue not once but twice and have offered to cover the time you were without your vehicle along with provided you transportation the entire time. In addition they have offered to help re-establish your confidence in that they will take care of you above and beyond your standard warranty for free as a result of this inconvenience. Unless I missed something. Also, it's possible they do not know exactly what has caused this issue so demanding a definitive answer from them may not even be something that is available. It's just frustrating to me that so many people think OEMs and techs are out to screw them. Do they exist? Yes. Is it the majority? Not from my years of dealership and tech work. If anything the problem is customers who want everything for free in the world of repair..... end mini rant.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by regal

Yep I wouldn't settle for less than a Long block with the chain on and everything factory tmed.

Not to insult techs, but a block put back together just isn't reliable as a sealed block from the factory. Once you crack 'em open, they're never the same. Can factory blocks be unreliable? Yes, but the likelihood of that is far lower than a rebuilt block.