Is 19 row Oil Cooler too much for NA?

[86MLR]

I'm thinking of using swizzle sticks for my power steering cooler.....

I cannot see a downside

Wait......what........

[pallen]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I remember this vid. Where he says "we've established the fact that you need an oil cooler" without presenting any evidence whatsoever that we do...

To be fair, he does specify for track use and especially FI. I did laugh when he said you have to have an oil cooler, then spent several minutes complaining about how it's hard to get the oil up to temp.

[norcalpb]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I remember this vid. Where he says "we've established the fact that you need an oil cooler" without presenting any evidence whatsoever that we do...

I agree in general, but OP stated he will be going FI so I think it's important he at least hears from the dude who had one of the first ever FI kits for our cars/his experience with oil coolers.

I believe in the case of track + FI, an oil cooler is for sure needed.

[norcalpb]

Originally Posted by ninjan00dles

Is it possible the 19 row cooler would be too large and prevent my engine oil from reaching optimum temps on the street? I’m assuming not because the sandwich plate is thermostatic, but wanted to reach out for better informed opinions.

FWIW in my experience here in the same bay area weather (with the 13 row cooler) I run 170F on the highway without a block off plate, and 200F with one.

I monitor it with my P3 gauge via OBD2 so as mentioned it is actually like 220 (maybe).

[ninjan00dles]

In light of the info from this thread, I think a Jackson Racing Rad/Oil Cooler is in my future.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I think this is more representative of cooler vs. no cooler data. To me it is not entirely conclusive as I have not observed the same behavior on my car. I will be switching to a setup to log oil temps and pressure on my car next year.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

Yeah, this is one of my go-to sources, it would be GREAT to get some more data like this, specifically oil temp and oil pressure going into the engine (post-cooler), with and without oil cooler, as well as *max* oil temp (pre-cooler, or sump?). Might be much to ask?

Might as well post up data from the link:


What this is telling us: an oil cooler does bring oil temps down at the track, in this case by about 25F-30F. But is 275F *really* a problem for good synthetic oil? I don't think it is. But what about oil pressure? Plot shows the same pressure for the same 5w30 oil whether it's at 275F without an oil cooler (yellow), or at 250F *with* an oil cooler (green). This is only one set of data, but the conclusion could be drawn that pressure drop due to the cooler nearly exactly offsets the pressure that should have been gained due to cooler oil.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by pallen

To be fair, he does specify for track use and especially FI. I did laugh when he said you have to have an oil cooler, then spent several minutes complaining about how it's hard to get the oil up to temp.

Exactly!

He tells us: "We've already established that, if you track this car, stock or with forced induction, you need an oil cooler on the car, there's no way around it."
No, we have not established that... Him having "talked to people who race" doesn't establish the *need* for an oil cooler.

He refers to the service manual which gives specs for oil pressure, but what he doesn't mention is that those specs are not an absolute requirement, but are referenced to *a specified temperature* which is close to normal operating temp. Of *course* pressure will drop with elevated temperature and it's higher at lower temps (which he mentions). The spec just means that at the *specified* temperature, pressure significantly lower than spec indicates there's a problem. It does not mean it's a "problem" if pressure is lower than that at higher temps. He does mention "you wanna stay out of the 40psi range", so maybe he does understand that pressures below the "spec" are somewhat to be expected. But anyway, he's speaking as if he has authority on the subject that I don't think he actually does...

[Calum]

Everything I've read says that synthetic oil is fine at even 300°F. Why is there such a push to put oil coolers on these cars? You want the oil hot (>212°F) so it burns off the water from combustion byproducts. Unless you're changing it really often. Why not just skip the pressure lose of a cooler and run an appropriate oil for the temperatures. M1 0W-40 to get the best viscosity index I know of would be my thought process as it should maintain its viscosity well as temperatures increase and still act like 0W-20 at startup. If your oil temps are going higher than 300°F or if you're pressure is going too low - and the oil cooler will actually increase post cooler pressure - then get one. Otherwise, why add the complication?

[Grady]

Originally Posted by Calum

Everything I've read says that synthetic oil is fine at even 300°F. Why is there such a push to put oil coolers on these cars? You want the oil hot (>212°F) so it burns off the water from combustion byproducts. Unless you're changing it really often. Why not just skip the pressure lose of a cooler and run an appropriate oil for the temperatures. M1 0W-40 to get the best viscosity index I know of would be my thought process as it should maintain its viscosity well as temperatures increase and still act like 0W-20 at startup. If your oil temps are going higher than 300°F or if you're pressure is going too low - and the oil cooler will actually increase post cooler pressure - then get one. Otherwise, why add the complication?

No one is worried about damaging the oil. The oil will not break down but your viscosity goes down and makes it easier to break through the oil barrier and have metal to metal contact. 20 weight will have a higher viscosity at 250 than 40 weight at 300. Oil pressure has very little effect on protecting components I will give up the couple of PSI drop for 40 deg of temp. Yes I run 0w40, oil cooler and still get to 250 at the track, 200 summer street and around 180 winter. 180 to 200 will still evaporate the moisture, it will take longer.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Grady

No one is worried about damaging the oil. The oil will not break down but your viscosity goes down and makes it easier to break through the oil barrier and have metal to metal contact. 20 weight will have a higher viscosity at 250 than 40 weight at 300.

And 30 weight oil at 275F will have about the same viscosity as 20 weight at 235F. My oil temps stabilize at a tick over 270F indicated at the track (no matter what ambient temp), so I run 30 weight, might consider 40wt next year...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Yeah, this is one of my go-to sources, it would be GREAT to get some more data like this, specifically oil temp and oil pressure going into the engine (post-cooler), with and without oil cooler, as well as *max* oil temp (pre-cooler, or sump?). Might be much to ask?

I will try to do some sort testing next season, I have another timing cover I could drill and tap for running sending units on the inlet and outlet side. It is still sitting in my aluminum scrap pile. As I have mentioned quite a bit before, I seem to get a lot of cavitation on 5-30 at high RPMs. My peak pressures from 6k to redline were really not that much different then 0-20 because of it and the pressure was more stable with 0-20. Granted, I have only measured this with an oil cooler on the car.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I will try to do some sort testing next season, I have another timing cover I could drill and tap for running sending units on the inlet and outlet side. It is still sitting in my aluminum scrap pile.

that'd be cool

As I have mentioned quite a bit before, I seem to get a lot of cavitation on 5-30 at high RPMs. My peak pressures from 6k to redline were really not that much different then 0-20 because of it and the pressure was more stable with 0-20. Granted, I have only measured this with an oil cooler on the car.

Yeah, that's a concern for me as well, one reason I'm running 30wt instead of 40wt for track season...
I'm sure you're familiar with this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863
Do you have KillerB pickup tube?

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

that'd be cool



Yeah, that's a concern for me as well, one reason I'm running 30wt instead of 40wt for track season...
I'm sure you're familiar with this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863
Do you have KillerB pickup tube?

Yeah I have read it a few times. I had a KillerB pickup but it was not usable and ended up being a big ordeal between me and them.

[ninjan00dles]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Yeah I have read it a few times. I had a KillerB pickup but it was not usable and ended up being a big ordeal between me and them.

Not usable in what sense? I read through the same thread Dan posted and was additionally planning on getting a baffled pan along with the killerb pickup.