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Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous |
View Poll Results: Turbocharger or Supercharger? | |||
Turbo | 19 | 30.65% | |
Super | 43 | 69.35% | |
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll |
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03-03-2021, 02:56 AM | #29 |
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Turbos cause they got that cooliness factor. But also with the cooliness comes with alot of negatives. There are alot more potential problems that could happen with them. The first one being things will get HOT. Installing them has alot more complexity because theyre are more parts to put on, meaning more things to break/leak/explode.
Superchargers are like having a bigger engine than you actually have. Torque at IDLING /s. But seriously torque from the get-go is pretty awesome. Installing, ive heard is simpler. Heat is there but not as much as a turbo. They say theres parasitic loss because its being powered by the engine itself but eh it puts out more power than whats being taken away so i never saw that as a huge negative. And you get instant noodle response on power. Torque at low rpm is what breaks these engines. Looking at dyno sheets from both FI systems on our FA20 motors, it seems majority the of SC make more torque at low rpm than turbos. But having said that low end torque from the SC probably wont break the motor since it happens linearly/gradually/slower. A turbo, however, has a higher than to break things with low end torque. Turbos want to build power and punch you in face with it. It happens so quickly compared to a SC. Not slow. Plenty of turbos can have torque in the low rpm range but since its the FA20 motor I’m assuming its being tuned so all that power doesnt fully happen until higher rpm ranges. Low rpm range = 2500-3000ish at least to me. But i still chose a turbo, cause its cooler. (not literally cause theyre hotter, much hotter) they go whoosh and stuff. I guess i like being punched in the face with power. |
03-03-2021, 03:33 AM | #30 |
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It definitely depends on the size of the turbo. A bigger turbo will have greater turbo threshold and thus less low end power. In general, the turbocharged cars will still produce more torque per horsepower, so the 300hp turbo guys are typically producing much more torque. Partially this is because they aren't dealing with parasitic losses, so more torque gets put to the ground, and the other part is because the torque drops off and doesn't build to redline like a JRSC, for instance. Looking at this FA20F from a WRX, we see what a typical turbo application from the factory looks like. I would agree that more curves are shifted more to the higher rpm range:
The other factor is lugging the engine. This is never good, but with a supercharger, the rpms will just sit down low and provide whatever constant boost is at that rpm, so if someone was going 45 mph up a steep hill in 6th gear at 2.5k or whatever, the supercharger wouldn't be making much torque, so bad but not terrible. The turbo is more load dependent, which is why brake boosting is more effective than just revving the engine, so the turbo will typically build more boost/torque in the above scenario. Could be bad.
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03-03-2021, 09:01 AM | #31 | |
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03-03-2021, 11:45 AM | #32 | |
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When reading your post I immediately thought of a simpler CVT arrangement between the existing pulleys, kinda like a Reeves drive on a mechanically variable speed drill press. Would be a fun experiment for someone mechanically inclined with cash to spare. |
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03-03-2021, 12:06 PM | #33 | |
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Last edited by mrg666; 03-03-2021 at 12:32 PM. |
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03-03-2021, 02:04 PM | #34 | |
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03-03-2021, 06:25 PM | #35 | |
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Someone who was doing boost-by-gear would also likely want to do boost-by-rpm. Boost-by-gear is about limiting the boost ceiling in a particular gear, so 5 psi in 1st and 8 psi in 2nd and 17 psi in 3rd and 25 psi in 4th through 6th. Something like that. The turbo would still have the same torque profile, so if it could hit 25psi by 4k then it would still be hitting say 7 psi by say 1500 rpms, so someone may want to ramp up boost a little for first gear for traction. On a supercharger, changing the pulley changes the max boost and the aggression/steepness of the torque profile, so it would make just as much sense to do the same. Yes, a centrifugal supercharger wouldn’t need as much adjustments by rpm, but here is a sample for an unspecified supercharger: 4-6th gear is 20 psi by 8k, so 10 psi at 4k and 5psi at 2k. Maybe 5 psi will be the max desirable boost in 1st gear, but it would still hit by 2k, so maybe that would be too much. Someone could limit the slope so 5 psi is hit at redline in order maximize traction at WOT launches. Considering most stock cars will break loose if input isn’t controlled, it would make sense that someone might want to do boost-by-rpm instead of just limiting boost to say 5 psi (boost-by-gear) and holding that from 2k to redline. Get it? Again, this can be done, and it is done, but at a greater cost in heat generation, efficiency and supercharger wear.
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03-03-2021, 10:59 PM | #36 |
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Having the max potential for less power at any rpm is never a positive. This is by no means a positive.
Plenty of ways to limit and turn down power if so desired, this can be done by how it’s setup, how it’s tuned, or how much throttle you give. Turbos make less crank power at same whp vs supercharger. IE 300whp is roughly 345 crank on turbo vs 365 crank on supercharger from parasitic draw. Supercharger always add extra strain to the engine at any rpm/boost as it’s always spinning even if the boost is being bled or blowet ain’t spinning fast. High torque, high load, low rpm snaps rods, so do any of the numerous things to turn down or limit boost down low, or on a PD blower if you want less torque use less throttle or detune it. Centrifugals are great for tracking as they are fairly efficient, have decent heat management, and make good power at high rpm. For a daily a PD is better would you rather daily an NA flat 4 or an NA v6? PD blower turns the engine into an NA v6. Effortlessly get up to speed or pass people without downshifting and reving out. Have great power off the line and still make power top end. A turbo can do any and all of that better if setup properly. The options for what can be done are limitless. Might be a little more difficult and expensive to do right and setup at first. But in the end will be better in just about every way. For a DD it isn’t unreasonably priced to setup, for tracking it does cost substantially more. So for low budget track car centrifugal all day. For a DD if you can setup a turbo yourself properly or have the funds then turbo, if you aren’t up to the task a PD blower is the next best DD option. In the end it comes down to budget, car use, and mechanical aptitude (what can/can’t you do on your own) |
03-04-2021, 12:18 PM | #37 |
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Would it be possible to control the boost on a PD supercharger by using the BPV to recirculate the undesired boost back pre blower.
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03-04-2021, 02:09 PM | #38 |
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That’s what we have been discussing the last two pages. It means the supercharger is over-spinning wastefully leading to excess heat, poor efficiency and greater supercharger wear.
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03-05-2021, 11:10 AM | #39 |
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But the load is not the same. So, heat, efficiency and wear will be less.
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03-05-2021, 03:14 PM | #40 | |
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What if one could reduce the parasitic load on the engine that the supercharger draws, to almost nothing as engine RPM's increase, by installing an exhaust-driven turbine in addition to the suoercharger, which spins a gearbox, which then spins a pulley to drive a belt that spins an overrunning clutch pulley, which is mounted to the supercharger's drive pulley? In theory, at low engine RPM's, the supercharger would be providing the immediate low-end boost and as the RPM's increase, the turbine gradually spins up and takes over the torque demand of the supercharger. The key part would be the overrunning clutch pulley to allow the engine driven belt for the supercharger to initially spin the supercharger's drive shaft, and then as the turbine and its gearbox gradually takes over, the turbine assembly's belt would take over, spinning the supercharger's drive shaft, but just BARELY faster than the engine's serpentine belt would at top RPM. Something like this: which can be found here: https://www.hilliardcorp.com/overrunning-clutches/ This set up could again, in theory, eliminate the parasitic draw of the supercharger, increasing available torque to the drive train. Basically, this is a turbine-driven, positive displacement (this could even be applied to a centrifugal) supercharger with little to no parasitic loss to the engine, combining the two best advantages of both a supercharger 1) immediate low-end boost from the engine, and a turbocharger 2) free horsepower and torque from the exhaust gasses. This is not twincharging, as the intake air is not compressed in two separate stages. The only disadvantages of this set up that I can think of would be 1) slightly more weight, which would be immediately negated by greater available drive train torque, 2) higher under-hood temperatures, which can be dealt with as one would normally do with a turbo set up, and 3) a slightly more complex set up. I think this is totally do-able with the right parts, which are already available, and by a persistent and innovative individual (with obviously deep pockets). |
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03-05-2021, 03:18 PM | #41 | |
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03-05-2021, 03:37 PM | #42 |
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Yes, the load will be less at 10 psi with the valve bleeding boost at 20k rpms than the load at 20 psi of boost at 20k rpms, but still greater than the load at 10 psi of boost at 10k rpms. This isn't an object spinning in the vacuum of space. There will be drag created by spinning the supercharger at 10k rpms beyond what is necessary. The drag will be from the bearings, from the interface of the rotors, from the air resistance, NVH, etc. Since a twin screw supercharger is always compressing air and not just pumping air like a roots supercharger, there were be the resistance of compressing air. Once the air is compressed, the boost would be vented, so there wouldn't be extra resistance from pressure building in the manifold, but compressing the air initially would be that much more wasteful and parasitic. There is no way around doing more work and wasting that work, and it not being more parasitic/wasteful.
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