Official: New Alpine A110

[Yoshoobaroo]

I mentioned lead acids because that Miata was using 10 of them going off the cad images.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

The i3 is slow, has a short range, and wasn't a sports car - closer to a CUV in appearance. Also didn't sell worth a lick. All the aftermarket conversions you're showing are just that, aftermarket. Sadly not applicable to the conversation (and hope for lightweight fun EVs). That's why I didn't reply to that comment, irrelevant to this discussion

Torque vectoring is needed only for dynamically flawed vehicles. Is that what all EVs are?

And fake noise? Are we really having this conversation. Fake is fake. My GTI has a button to make the engine sound louder. It's horrible. I leave it off. If its not authentic just don't even bother.

I didn't say it was a sports car/coupe. I described the i3 as a proof of concept. A sports car is a Miata, aka a lightweight, open-top/closed-top, good handling car. The i3's shell and body could have been changed to any shape and with any suspension and been a sports car. The point is the proof of concept. There are GT cars, sports sedans, muscle and pony cars, etc that are all sporty vehicles, but you said an EV sports car under 3500lbs isn't possible now or ever, and I demonstrated that it already is possible.

You didn't have other qualifiers, but now you are adding acceleration, range and production numbers to your list of qualifiers to go along with "less than 3500lbs". I don't know how production numbers or popularity matters, but the car did sell 31k units in the US in 2019, which is on par or higher than the 86, so I don't really get your point. Maybe it would be worth defining your statements, so we don't waste time with a back and forth that ends in a redefining of the original statement.

Active/torque vectoring differentials are outlawed in F1, are on many exotics and sports vehicles like the ISF, Focus RS, Porsche and Supra/M cars to name a few. Are all these sporty vehicles inherently flawed?

The point of the conversation about noise is that noise is already fake, so not much is changing. Get a turbo whistle or speaker like ICE vehicles do.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

That "car" is a pretty sweet golf cart.

I appreciate your optimism, but I think deep down you know it'll never happen. It's about as likely as the BRZ getting a turbo

The Miata is likely to be a hybrid first and then a full EV like all cars, where the Miata could go back to a 1.5L or smaller displacement motor and use the electric motor for torque fill until it makes the full switch to EV, or maybe it'll use a 600cc motor for extended range and go EV. We will have to see. Regardless, I fail to see how a Miata will add over 1300lbs in weight going electric.

https://www.motor1.com/news/515992/n...brid-electric/

Again, you seem to have certain metrics in your mind that you qualify as a sports car, as in a certain amount of performance, yet you also want range and lightweight and who knows what else. Oh yeah, you want it to be popular. If this sports car is suppose to be a sports car then we are classically talking about something that is lightweight, two-seater, good-handling roadster, or in the case of sports coupe, something with a hardtop, but acceleration isn't necessarily a given. The Miata and 86 are underpowered, but they perform well.

If I had an EV that was 2500lbs, had three gears to row, handled well, had direct steering, was well balanced, was fun, and was something sweet to look at, then I would be happy. Range, acceleration, etc aren't requirements for it to be an EV sports car, but they are perks or dealbreakers for some.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I mentioned lead acids because that Miata was using 10 of them going off the cad images.

Pretty sure is using prismatic cells, which is configuration of a lithium-ion battery used in many EVs. Prismatic cells are what they sell and use on their Porsche conversion.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

What? No I don’t think that’s correct. The real source of the decline is that there’s just no market for these cars compared to 20 years ago. Wages are shit, housing market is trash, most people can’t afford luxuries like a sports car like they could in the 80s/90s/early 2000s

Nagh, its because they want to drive a 80k bus to work. They could buy two cars for the price of a lux SUV

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Pretty sure is using prismatic cells, which is configuration of a lithium-ion battery used in many EVs. Prismatic cells are what they sell and use on their Porsche conversion.

I see, the Porsche is using a 350V LiIon setup capable of fast charging.
The Miata uses a 120V setup that charges in 4 hours, no fast charging.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If I had an EV that was 2500lbs, had three gears to row, handled well, had direct steering, was well balanced, was fun, and was something sweet to look at, then I would be happy. Range, acceleration, etc aren't requirements for it to be an EV sports car, but they are perks or dealbreakers for some.

Almost anything is possible, but you know the above will never happen. Not in an affordable capacity I don't think.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I didn't say it was a sports car/coupe. I described the i3 as a proof of concept. A sports car is a Miata, aka a lightweight, open-top/closed-top, good handling car. The i3's shell and body could have been changed to any shape and with any suspension and been a sports car. The point is the proof of concept. There are GT cars, sports sedans, muscle and pony cars, etc that are all sporty vehicles, but you said an EV sports car under 3500lbs isn't possible now or ever, and I demonstrated that it already is possible.

It didn't have the range. And that's what makes it so heavy. Maybe it wasn't popular because of its styling (and rightfully so)

You didn't have other qualifiers, but now you are adding acceleration, range and production numbers to your list of qualifiers to go along with "less than 3500lbs". I don't know how production numbers or popularity matters, but the car did sell 31k units in the US in 2019, which is on par or higher than the 86, so I don't really get your point. Maybe it would be worth defining your statements, so we don't waste time with a back and forth that ends in a redefining of the original statement.

You can get off your high horse here. My parameters have been consistent for basically ever on here.

[QUOTE]Active/torque vectoring differentials are outlawed in F1, are on many exotics and sports vehicles like the ISF, Focus RS, Porsche and Supra/M cars to name a few. Are all these sporty vehicles inherently flawed? [QUOTE]

The Focus RS absolutely is inherently flawed. Without the vectoring its handling would be reflective of it's weight imbalance. Plenty of cars handle fine without the vectoring, that aren't flawed, but its still an option for them as well. I'm saying the ones that are flawed need it in order to handle proper. It's a bandaid. My GTI is guilty of that as well. But I bought it to be a DD grocery getter so whatever, I don't have any allusions about it being some great performance vehicle. Porsche made the 2nd gen Cayman larger, and as a result the only way they made it as nimble as the first gen was to offer torque vectoring as an option. So I would consider that a flaw yes. It's also the same reason a chunky 992 911 is able to hang with lighter more mechanically pure driving 911s of years before.

The point of the conversation about noise is that noise is already fake, so not much is changing. Get a turbo whistle or speaker like ICE vehicles do.

That was a term of expression. Sarcasm at the joke of it. I agree it's sad as well.

The Miata is likely to be a hybrid first and then a full EV like all cars, where the Miata could go back to a 1.5L or smaller displacement motor and use the electric motor for torque fill until it makes the full switch to EV, or maybe it'll use a 600cc motor for extended range and go EV. We will have to see. Regardless, I fail to see how a Miata will add over 1300lbs in weight going electric.

https://www.motor1.com/news/515992/n...brid-electric/

If anyone could do it, probably will be Mazda (if they're still an independent company in 10 years). But a hybrid Miata sounds miserable. Hopefully they'll just make it an ICE until the technology exists to make it an EV with the same ethos.

Again, you seem to have certain metrics in your mind that you qualify as a sports car, as in a certain amount of performance, yet you also want range and lightweight and who knows what else. Oh yeah, you want it to be popular. If this sports car is suppose to be a sports car then we are classically talking about something that is lightweight, two-seater, good-handling roadster, or in the case of sports coupe, something with a hardtop, but acceleration isn't necessarily a given. The Miata and 86 are underpowered, but they perform well.

Huh? What do I care if a sports car is popular or not. I just want something to be popular enough for the business case to exist for it to not lose money, i.e. so someone will see value in building it. Seems pretty obvious to me that an EV sports car needs range equal to an ICE sports car so that it can be used for track events. Otherwise what's the point. These cars are toys. Again I'm all for variety but what you're seeing is cancellation and replacement with vehicles that aren't the least bit similar.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Almost anything is possible, but you know the above will never happen. Not in an affordable capacity I don't think.

We will have to see what happens. There obviously is a small market for these type of vehicles or the 86, Miata, Lotus, etc wouldn't exist. It isn't huge, but it is big enough not to ignore, and it invigorates the brand. Sporty cars and trucks bring more brand loyalty than sedans and CUVs. It is good for business. We know this is the case or Toyota wouldn't have put the effort into the 86 and Supra.

At one point in time we had the Miata, the Solstice, the Sky, the MR2, Boxster, and others. Has so much changed that this market is gone forever? I don't think so. I wouldn't be surprised if these type of cars get even more traction. Why? 800hp large, sports sedans and pony cars aren't a big deal. Powerful EVs will destroy them anyways and naturally replace them. Many enthusiasts are gravitating to old platforms and lightweight cars. They are better for autocross and track days than a Redeye. I think a Redeye was almost identical to a Miata around a test track in a review that I saw, despite the power. Aero, lightweight, grip and handling will be more important, which is doable with a lightweight EV. I wouldn't dismiss the possibility. In fact, the modular structure of the skateboard design will lend itself to multiple different shells.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

It didn't have the range. And that's what makes it so heavy. Maybe it wasn't popular because of its styling (and rightfully so)

You can get off your high horse here. My parameters have been consistent for basically ever on here.

The i3 was just as successful as many cars on the road. Again, you are making statements without defining the criteria you are using to make your statements. What metric are you using to say it wasn't successful? Profits, production numbers, years in production...?

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

The Focus RS absolutely is inherently flawed. Without the vectoring its handling would be reflective of it's weight imbalance. Plenty of cars handle fine without the vectoring, that aren't flawed, but its still an option for them as well. I'm saying the ones that are flawed need it in order to handle proper. It's a bandaid. My GTI is guilty of that as well. But I bought it to be a DD grocery getter so whatever, I don't have any allusions about it being some great performance vehicle. Porsche made the 2nd gen Cayman larger, and as a result the only way they made it as nimble as the first gen was to offer torque vectoring as an option. So I would consider that a flaw yes. It's also the same reason a chunky 992 911 is able to hang with lighter more mechanically pure driving 911s of years before.

By your own admission, the system can be used to improve an already balanced system with minimal weight (active diff on the M3 is like 10-20lbs heavier). You suggested EVs are flawed, so they are using the torque vectoring to fix a problem, yet they may be just taking advantage of something inherently available. The skateboard design has a low center of mass; the battery is center, so it can have a good polar of inertia for rotation; the motors are between the drive wheels, so weight is directly over the wheels for traction; a front and rear engine can create a near 50/50 weight distribution. This is all good stuff, or even better stuff.

There are variants of the same car optioned without the active diff, and they still destroy older variants.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Huh? What do I care if a sports car is popular or not. I just want something to be popular enough for the business case to exist for it to not lose money, i.e. so someone will see value in building it. Seems pretty obvious to me that an EV sports car needs range equal to an ICE sports car so that it can be used for track events. Otherwise what's the point. These cars are toys. Again I'm all for variety but what you're seeing is cancellation and replacement with vehicles that aren't the least bit similar.

Because you said the i3 wasn't popular, so by your own statement someone would reasonably conclude you care if a car is popular. Seems popular enough if it is going to be in production for ten years and sales have gone up each year.

As of February 2014, BMW was producing an average of 70 cars a day, about half the planned production, with lower production due to a high defect rate in the carbon parts. A subsequent investment of about €100 million in the production of carbon parts was made to solve the supply problems. According to BMW, there were 11,000 orders at the time, including 1,200 from U.S. customers. As a result of the high demand and the slow production rate, delivery waiting time extended to September 2014.[103][104]

As of October 2017, production of the BMW i3 was just over 120 cars per day. By late October 2017, the 100,000th BMW i3 had been built in the Leipzig plant.[105] As of December 2019, BMW plans to continue i3 production until 2024, and there are no specific plans for an i3 successor.[106] The 200,000th i3 rolled off the production line in the Leipzig plant on 15 October 2020

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Production

Again, the point of the BMW i3 is to demonstrate that EVs aren't necessarily heavy. A different form factor version of the BMW i3 in a sports car format could be even lighter. Range and speed aren't necessary for a sports car. Going to the track is a consideration for enthusiasts, but not really on the list of concerns when producing an affordable sports car. The vast majority of Miatas and 86s never see a track or get a single modification. I don't see why an EV would be different.

An EV Miata is totally doable with today's technology and still be compelling. It might even sell alongside an ICE version, and it could do well, especially at autocross or for short tracks, but it would be even better as a no-fuss weekend Sunday driver that would need little maintenance. For anyone in a city like me with a 3 mile commute, and who is 30 minutes from the coast and who has a two hour loop for canyon driving, 150-200 mile range is more than enough.

[Sasquachulator]

The first Tesla roadster was over 2800lbs, around the same as heaviest i3.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

But a hybrid Miata sounds miserable.

I don't understand why? Admittedly there are no cheap performance hybrids, but there's nothing to say they couldn't implement an electric motor that would benefit the performance characteristics. I'm a little surprised the GR86 wasn't developed in this way. After all there are plenty of mild 48v Hybrids out there.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

I don't understand why? Admittedly there are no cheap performance hybrids, but there's nothing to say they couldn't implement an electric motor that would benefit the performance characteristics. I'm a little surprised the GR86 wasn't developed in this way. After all there are plenty of mild 48v Hybrids out there.

This could happen only if Toyota played the major role in 2nd gen. With Subaru having the active role, we should feel lucky that we got even the D-4S technology for a second time. All they did this time was to apply the same exercise of the past, but starting with the FB25 engine instead of the FB20 engine. And they were so stubborn at first, that they were thinking they could make it with their own DI technology without using D-4S.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

This could happen only if Toyota played the major role in 2nd gen. With Subaru having the active role, we should feel lucky that we got even the D-4S technology for a second time. All they did this time was to apply the same exercise of the past, but starting with the FB25 engine instead of the FB20 engine. And they were so stubborn at first, that they were thinking they could make it with their own DI technology without using D-4S.

All Subarus except for the BRZ use Subaru's own DI system though. Also Subaru has their own hybrid system that incorporates the motor in the transaxle. They could design it without Toyota. it's not a technical challenge, but a market challenge.

The Miata is going electric not because the market is asking for it, but because it's the only way the Miata will survive. A hybrid BRZ would be more expensive and almost impossible to sell next to the gas version. Once they're unable to sell gas only cars the hybrid may become an option out of necessity, or the model will be discontinued.

I could be wrong but an entry level sports car is a hard enough sell at 30k, let alone 35-40k for a hybrid version. Remember the Supra starts at 44k.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

All Subarus except for the BRZ use Subaru's own DI system though. Also Subaru has their own hybrid system that incorporates the motor in the transaxle. They could design it without Toyota. it's not a technical challenge, but a market challenge.

Yes they have their own hybrid system which was first introduced in Crosstrek and in fact it was a disaster. The car was slower than the one with plain engine and I think mileage wasn't much better too. I believe they get now some support from Toyota to continue with their electrification future.

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The Miata is going electric not because the market is asking for it, but because it's the only way the Miata will survive. A hybrid BRZ would be more expensive and almost impossible to sell next to the gas version. Once they're unable to sell gas only cars the hybrid may become an option out of necessity, or the model will be discontinued.

I could be wrong but an entry level sports car is a hard enough sell at 30k, let alone 35-40k for a hybrid version. Remember the Supra starts at 44k.

I think that Miata could give us something quite interesting and more relevant to where we are moving. I agree that it is not easy to sell a 30k sports car, but I would prefer to pay maybe 5k more than to buy cheaper and pay after higher taxes cause of the worse vehicle classification, higher CO2 etc.