BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[WolfpackS2k]

More than happy to go into more detail there. The car has 117,052 miles on it. I'm the third owner and purchased the car at 56,000 miles. I've self performed all (basic to intermediate) maintenance. MobilOne 0w40 oil changes twice a year or between track events (depends on the timing). Had the oil analyzed by BlackStone every other oil change. The car had been tracked by me at NCCAR once, VIR 3 wknds (Grand and Full courses), Roebling Road 2 wknds and then died at Carolina Motorsports Park (first wknd of Nov) on my 3rd session of first day.

State of car modifications: Suspension overhaul performed roughly 15,000 miles ago with Ohlins R&T coilovers, Ground Control front camber plates, new OEM front LCAs, new rear OEM upper strut mounts. Installed (week before CMP) Elephant Racing adjustable rear toe control arms. FVD Motorsports deep oil sump with X51 baffles installed 1 year ago. AOS replaced 1 year ago.
New front caliper piston seals installed 2 weeks before CMP. Original clutch. Tires on track were Nitto NT05s (with 4 previous track days on them). Carbotech street pads, Pagid Yellow track pads.

Here's what I posted on S2KI about the incident itself:

So what happened was... in the 3rd session, right after I lifted for Turn 14 (final turn of the track) the engine shut of and CEL came on. I heard nothing beforehand through my helmet to give me any sort of warning. Nor did any warning/idiot lights pop up on the dashboard beforehand to warn me of impeding disaster. I was able to roll the car back to the paddock and during that time tried to restart the engine, to no avail. See below for the video. Of note, I think the engine starts to sound "different" around the 1:19, and more clearly at the 1:30 points in the video. Failure occurs roughly at 1:40.

As stated above, I could not get the engine to restart while rolling back in the paddock. Additionally, since the engine shut off abruptly while on track, the coolant temps starting going sky high. Never fully in the red, but the needle stayed all the way at the top of the dial for a good while until the engine bay cooling fan could evacuate enough heat. In the meantime, while the engine cooled off I read the error code, P0301. This code states that a cylinder 1 misfire occurred. Okay I thought, not too bad. I hadn't heard any horrible sounds from the engine right before it shut off. There was no smoke from the exhaust. No fluids leaking from underneath the car. The digital display also indicated that I still had a full sump of oil. My initial thoughts were that one of my coil packs had failed. However my view of things got worse when I was able to restart the engine, which I was able to do about 30-45 minutes later. It took some coaxing, but when it finally started up it was not firing on all cylinders. And then after a few seconds the console display stated "Low Oil Pressure". Oh ****, that...that is very bad. I was able to get an on-site mechanic to come over and take a look at the car, mostly in hopes that he could manually verify what my oil pressure situation was. While waiting for him I removed the engine cover. When he arrived, we started up the car again and it sounded the same as before, bad and not running on all cylinders. Then after a few seconds a new metallic banging sound started (sounded like a socket attachment being shook inside a tin can). When that happened we immediately shut down the engine and he stated in his professional opinion that I had a serious internal engine problem (no kidding...). I had already assumed my weekend was over, and at this point I just packed it all up and planned to investigate things further myself at home.

At home I drained the oil (lots of metal flakes) and dropped the oil sump (lots of metal CHUNKS). I also sent an oil sample to Blackstone (why not?) After looking at the metal in the oil sump I basically stopped investigating. There's clearly internal engine damage that requires engine rebuilding (or more likely, replacement). I spoke with my trusted Porsche mechanic about the incident and details and he confirmed that it was completely unrelated to anything IMS related (I mention this since most people scream to stay away from 987.1 Caymans b/c of the IMS). He also strongly advised not trying to have the engine rebuilt - said get it replaced.

I may never know what caused the engine failure, because at this point I have no desire to pay for such a diagnosis. But what is clear is that something happened inside the engine that stopped or altered the flow of oil. I suspect that the connecting rod bolts for cylinder #1 may have failed or stretched (a "common" point of failure for track driven M97 engines). I will probably write a letter to Porsche. Most likely meaningless but why not, as it requires little effort on my part. The car is 15 years old but engine failure from 117,000 miles is just embarrassing for a sports car company.

I'm not sure what my next move is, but what I do know is that, at least right now, I cannot afford an engine replacement. Used M97s are $8500-10000 and I would not want to reinstall another (possibly) flawed engine. Rebuilt M97s with upgraded internals to correct factory design errors are $15000-20000. And none of these prices include labor to remove and replace from the car. Additionally, its worth noting that a Chevy LS swap conversion costs about $20,000 as well. There's a cheaper Audi V8 conversion out there, but I think that would be a bad idea.

If I can get some decent money for the car selling it as is (around $14,000) then I will probably go that route. If I don't get any bites that way I might start removing and selling a few of the aftermarket parts separately. Or if I have zero chance of selling the car for what I deem a reasonable amount then I might keep the car and save up to replace the engine with something better...and just not have a sports/track car for 1-3 years ( )

[Tokay444]

As a note, rising coolant temps on a hot engine that has just shut off is not of any concern. The water pump can't pump if the engine isn't spinning to circulate coolant though the system, so it heat soaks. There still is some movement through the system by design, and why the fan kicks on to cool the fluid in the rad (it's not to cool the engine bay), but there is no more heat being generated, as the engine isn't running. You're seeing the coolant normalize to the rest of the engine which is cooling at a slower pace than the coolant is warming.

[Ernest72]

Tough situation. This is the main reason I bought a BRZ instead of a used cayman for my DD. I was putting on a lot of miles and did not want to have to replace a Porsche engine. Subie engines are significantly cheaper, as is other maintenance.

I would search far and wide for a replacement engine. In the meantime, if you wrench, take the old one out just for fun and save some labor. Maybe even put the new one in, but have a good mechanic double check your work. Just a thought. Good luck.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

More than happy to go into more detail there. The car has 117,052 miles on it. I'm the third owner and purchased the car at 56,000 miles. I've self performed all (basic to intermediate) maintenance. MobilOne 0w40 oil changes twice a year or between track events (depends on the timing). Had the oil analyzed by BlackStone every other oil change. The car had been tracked by me at NCCAR once, VIR 3 wknds (Grand and Full courses), Roebling Road 2 wknds and then died at Carolina Motorsports Park (first wknd of Nov) on my 3rd session of first day.

State of car modifications: Suspension overhaul performed roughly 15,000 miles ago with Ohlins R&T coilovers, Ground Control front camber plates, new OEM front LCAs, new rear OEM upper strut mounts. Installed (week before CMP) Elephant Racing adjustable rear toe control arms. FVD Motorsports deep oil sump with X51 baffles installed 1 year ago. AOS replaced 1 year ago.
New front caliper piston seals installed 2 weeks before CMP. Original clutch. Tires on track were Nitto NT05s (with 4 previous track days on them). Carbotech street pads, Pagid Yellow track pads.

Here's what I posted on S2KI about the incident itself:

So what happened was... in the 3rd session, right after I lifted for Turn 14 (final turn of the track) the engine shut of and CEL came on. I heard nothing beforehand through my helmet to give me any sort of warning. Nor did any warning/idiot lights pop up on the dashboard beforehand to warn me of impeding disaster. I was able to roll the car back to the paddock and during that time tried to restart the engine, to no avail. See below for the video. Of note, I think the engine starts to sound "different" around the 1:19, and more clearly at the 1:30 points in the video. Failure occurs roughly at 1:40.

As stated above, I could not get the engine to restart while rolling back in the paddock. Additionally, since the engine shut off abruptly while on track, the coolant temps starting going sky high. Never fully in the red, but the needle stayed all the way at the top of the dial for a good while until the engine bay cooling fan could evacuate enough heat. In the meantime, while the engine cooled off I read the error code, P0301. This code states that a cylinder 1 misfire occurred. Okay I thought, not too bad. I hadn't heard any horrible sounds from the engine right before it shut off. There was no smoke from the exhaust. No fluids leaking from underneath the car. The digital display also indicated that I still had a full sump of oil. My initial thoughts were that one of my coil packs had failed. However my view of things got worse when I was able to restart the engine, which I was able to do about 30-45 minutes later. It took some coaxing, but when it finally started up it was not firing on all cylinders. And then after a few seconds the console display stated "Low Oil Pressure". Oh ****, that...that is very bad. I was able to get an on-site mechanic to come over and take a look at the car, mostly in hopes that he could manually verify what my oil pressure situation was. While waiting for him I removed the engine cover. When he arrived, we started up the car again and it sounded the same as before, bad and not running on all cylinders. Then after a few seconds a new metallic banging sound started (sounded like a socket attachment being shook inside a tin can). When that happened we immediately shut down the engine and he stated in his professional opinion that I had a serious internal engine problem (no kidding...). I had already assumed my weekend was over, and at this point I just packed it all up and planned to investigate things further myself at home.

At home I drained the oil (lots of metal flakes) and dropped the oil sump (lots of metal CHUNKS). I also sent an oil sample to Blackstone (why not?) After looking at the metal in the oil sump I basically stopped investigating. There's clearly internal engine damage that requires engine rebuilding (or more likely, replacement). I spoke with my trusted Porsche mechanic about the incident and details and he confirmed that it was completely unrelated to anything IMS related (I mention this since most people scream to stay away from 987.1 Caymans b/c of the IMS). He also strongly advised not trying to have the engine rebuilt - said get it replaced.

I may never know what caused the engine failure, because at this point I have no desire to pay for such a diagnosis. But what is clear is that something happened inside the engine that stopped or altered the flow of oil. I suspect that the connecting rod bolts for cylinder #1 may have failed or stretched (a "common" point of failure for track driven M97 engines). I will probably write a letter to Porsche. Most likely meaningless but why not, as it requires little effort on my part. The car is 15 years old but engine failure from 117,000 miles is just embarrassing for a sports car company.

I'm not sure what my next move is, but what I do know is that, at least right now, I cannot afford an engine replacement. Used M97s are $8500-10000 and I would not want to reinstall another (possibly) flawed engine. Rebuilt M97s with upgraded internals to correct factory design errors are $15000-20000. And none of these prices include labor to remove and replace from the car. Additionally, its worth noting that a Chevy LS swap conversion costs about $20,000 as well. There's a cheaper Audi V8 conversion out there, but I think that would be a bad idea.

If I can get some decent money for the car selling it as is (around $14,000) then I will probably go that route. If I don't get any bites that way I might start removing and selling a few of the aftermarket parts separately. Or if I have zero chance of selling the car for what I deem a reasonable amount then I might keep the car and save up to replace the engine with something better...and just not have a sports/track car for 1-3 years ( )

I vote for an FA20 swap


Sorry, bad timing for humor, hopefully someone is looking for a well cared for Cayman chassis for a 3.8 swap.

[Petah78]

Thank you for taking your time and sharing your experience. I couldn't make out anything that was out of the ordinary in your video as i thought everything sounded fine until it shut down. So if I am reading this right, you have had the car for about 70 miles and in that time, you tracked it 7 times? That is not a lot of track use. How do you drive on the street?


Cayman was always my natural progression post BRZ ownership but I have always been weary of potential problems. The more I read about German cars, the more I want to stay away. And for me, the only reason to go German for more power but it seems like modding the BRZ (or any Japanese car) is the way to go if power is what you desire. Even if you break it, the repair costs wouldn't be as bad.


I am sorry to hear what has happened. Wishing your Cayman a speedy recovery.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

More than happy to go into more detail there. The car has 117,052 miles on it. I'm the third owner and purchased the car at 56,000 miles. I've self performed all (basic to intermediate) maintenance. MobilOne 0w40 oil changes twice a year or between track events (depends on the timing). Had the oil analyzed by BlackStone every other oil change. The car had been tracked by me at NCCAR once, VIR 3 wknds (Grand and Full courses), Roebling Road 2 wknds and then died at Carolina Motorsports Park (first wknd of Nov) on my 3rd session of first day.

State of car modifications: Suspension overhaul performed roughly 15,000 miles ago with Ohlins R&T coilovers, Ground Control front camber plates, new OEM front LCAs, new rear OEM upper strut mounts. Installed (week before CMP) Elephant Racing adjustable rear toe control arms. FVD Motorsports deep oil sump with X51 baffles installed 1 year ago. AOS replaced 1 year ago.
New front caliper piston seals installed 2 weeks before CMP. Original clutch. Tires on track were Nitto NT05s (with 4 previous track days on them). Carbotech street pads, Pagid Yellow track pads.

Here's what I posted on S2KI about the incident itself:

So what happened was... in the 3rd session, right after I lifted for Turn 14 (final turn of the track) the engine shut of and CEL came on. I heard nothing beforehand through my helmet to give me any sort of warning. Nor did any warning/idiot lights pop up on the dashboard beforehand to warn me of impeding disaster. I was able to roll the car back to the paddock and during that time tried to restart the engine, to no avail. See below for the video. Of note, I think the engine starts to sound "different" around the 1:19, and more clearly at the 1:30 points in the video. Failure occurs roughly at 1:40.

As stated above, I could not get the engine to restart while rolling back in the paddock. Additionally, since the engine shut off abruptly while on track, the coolant temps starting going sky high. Never fully in the red, but the needle stayed all the way at the top of the dial for a good while until the engine bay cooling fan could evacuate enough heat. In the meantime, while the engine cooled off I read the error code, P0301. This code states that a cylinder 1 misfire occurred. Okay I thought, not too bad. I hadn't heard any horrible sounds from the engine right before it shut off. There was no smoke from the exhaust. No fluids leaking from underneath the car. The digital display also indicated that I still had a full sump of oil. My initial thoughts were that one of my coil packs had failed. However my view of things got worse when I was able to restart the engine, which I was able to do about 30-45 minutes later. It took some coaxing, but when it finally started up it was not firing on all cylinders. And then after a few seconds the console display stated "Low Oil Pressure". Oh ****, that...that is very bad. I was able to get an on-site mechanic to come over and take a look at the car, mostly in hopes that he could manually verify what my oil pressure situation was. While waiting for him I removed the engine cover. When he arrived, we started up the car again and it sounded the same as before, bad and not running on all cylinders. Then after a few seconds a new metallic banging sound started (sounded like a socket attachment being shook inside a tin can). When that happened we immediately shut down the engine and he stated in his professional opinion that I had a serious internal engine problem (no kidding...). I had already assumed my weekend was over, and at this point I just packed it all up and planned to investigate things further myself at home.

At home I drained the oil (lots of metal flakes) and dropped the oil sump (lots of metal CHUNKS). I also sent an oil sample to Blackstone (why not?) After looking at the metal in the oil sump I basically stopped investigating. There's clearly internal engine damage that requires engine rebuilding (or more likely, replacement). I spoke with my trusted Porsche mechanic about the incident and details and he confirmed that it was completely unrelated to anything IMS related (I mention this since most people scream to stay away from 987.1 Caymans b/c of the IMS). He also strongly advised not trying to have the engine rebuilt - said get it replaced.

I may never know what caused the engine failure, because at this point I have no desire to pay for such a diagnosis. But what is clear is that something happened inside the engine that stopped or altered the flow of oil. I suspect that the connecting rod bolts for cylinder #1 may have failed or stretched (a "common" point of failure for track driven M97 engines). I will probably write a letter to Porsche. Most likely meaningless but why not, as it requires little effort on my part. The car is 15 years old but engine failure from 117,000 miles is just embarrassing for a sports car company.

I'm not sure what my next move is, but what I do know is that, at least right now, I cannot afford an engine replacement. Used M97s are $8500-10000 and I would not want to reinstall another (possibly) flawed engine. Rebuilt M97s with upgraded internals to correct factory design errors are $15000-20000. And none of these prices include labor to remove and replace from the car. Additionally, its worth noting that a Chevy LS swap conversion costs about $20,000 as well. There's a cheaper Audi V8 conversion out there, but I think that would be a bad idea.

If I can get some decent money for the car selling it as is (around $14,000) then I will probably go that route. If I don't get any bites that way I might start removing and selling a few of the aftermarket parts separately. Or if I have zero chance of selling the car for what I deem a reasonable amount then I might keep the car and save up to replace the engine with something better...and just not have a sports/track car for 1-3 years ( )

[WolfpackS2k]

Yeah, about 70,000 miles of ownership. Street driving was nothing out of the ordinary. Was used as a DD for a bit, but very little the last 3 years. I've taken it for a few driving road trips to the NC/TN mtns to drive on Tail of the Dragon and other highly regarded roads. Otherwise, nothing super spirited.

[CSG Mike]

I'm glad you made it safely off track. That could have been much worse if the drivers behind you were not aware!

Unfortunately, folks have perpetuated that the FA20 is unreliable, but I think it's actually quite reliable, even under hard use conditions such as tracking.

I've had the fortune to experience many other platforms under track conditions, and in particular, fleet cars, and I can tell you that complete engine failure is much more common in these higher dollar cars than people think.

The S2000 is the one exception I can think of, when it comes to exceptionally durable engines.

[WolfpackS2k]

I was pretty upset at the time (as you can imagine). But I was grateful that it failed near the pits, that I didn't disrupt the session for anyone else, and that no personal injury occurred.


On flip side I had track insurance so if the engine failure had caused me to wreck the car I would have been covered...

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I was pretty upset at the time (as you can imagine). But I was grateful that it failed near the pits, that I didn't disrupt the session for anyone else, and that no personal injury occurred.


On flip side I had track insurance so if the engine failure had caused me to wreck the car I would have been covered...

It's all about perspective

Look at it this way, I bought my FR-S new for 25K, without all the goodies I invested in it's probably worth 13-14k, so I've suffered a 12k loss. Not that much less than you, it's just that your depreciation happened more suddenly (I'm assuming you bought the Cayman used after most normal depreciation).

[WolfpackS2k]

Haha, yes. It's MSRP was $59,595 and I purchased it 8 years ago (56k on odometer) for $29,000. Before my engine blew it was worth around $20-23,000. BTW it's difficult to judge (online) what a Cayman roller is worth, but based on what I've seen over on Rennlist, I'm a bit concerned.

Now I need to decide if I want to sell it or install a better (more durable) rebuilt flat 6. Because if I go the rebuilt engine route I'll be keeping this car for a LONG time.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Haha, yes. It's MSRP was $59,595 and I purchased it 8 years ago (56k on odometer) for $29,000. Before my engine blew it was worth around $20-23,000. BTW it's difficult to judge (online) what a Cayman roller is worth, but based on what I've seen over on Rennlist, I'm a bit concerned.

Now I need to decide if I want to sell it or install a better (more durable) rebuilt flat 6. Because if I go the rebuilt engine route I'll be keeping this car for a LONG time.

Yeah you'll have to find a special buyer who wants to take on a project vs. you taking on a project.



Project options:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-2008-P...Cclp%3A2334524


and sell the thing, or bite the bullet and:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-11-Por...Cclp%3A2334524


would be pretty ferocious, those 997.2 3.8's pack a wallop and are supposedly pretty rock solid.

[WolfpackS2k]

I appreciate your resourcefulness, however there are 2 issues here, one with each engine.

First engine - direct Cayman S engine replacement - used with 77k miles. If I just installed this engine into my car I would have the same fear of what happened last month happening again. I couldn't track the car in good faith. It would be a fine street car though, and if I installed that engine I could just sell the car, whole, and move on.

Second engine - 2011 911 Carrera S. Hell yeah, 385 hp that would be a blast. Unfortunately that engine has direct fuel injection and runs on a Siemens ECU. My car does not have direct fuel injection and runs on a Bosch ECU. Yes it IS possible to swap over the electronics and DI fuel system to my car so the engine works...but at that point the amount of money spent is probably high...higher than my reach.

[Ernest72]

This is a tough decision. I think it has to be a love decision. If you love a car it’s worth putting more money into it, than it’s worth on the market. If you don’t love it, sell it, take your lose and save up for your next love.

[CSG Mike]

Drop in working engine, sell, replace with what suits your needs/desires, IMO.