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Old 10-20-2020, 06:21 PM   #1
SprungtS
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Leaning out around 4200-4500 RPM?

I've searched and come up with nothing, probably because I don't know of a way to search for this without getting tons of unrelated results. I feel like it's a fairly simple fix, and I'm just overlooking something.

Like the title says, almost exactly 4200-4500 RPM I'm consistently getting a lean condition. Commanding 12.12, getting as high as 12.98 at the peak on one pull, as high as 12.5-12.6 on others, right around 4350 RPM. I don't believe it's MAF scaling, considering those MAF V values are stretched out there and I'm not having issues slightly above and below that voltage. As soon as it hits 4500 RPM it's back at command AFR and slips just under command AFR for the remainder of the powerband.

I was thinking it may be something with the DI/PI system, but nothing is changing as far as I can tell at those RPM/loads. *Something* is happening at that moment, I just can't figure out what it is.

I'm not very far into tuning it, since I don't drive this car often. But I've got the rest of the fuel curve under WOT pretty much right where I want it: 11.7-12 AFR when commanding 12.12.

Stock airbox
Sprintex Supercharger
Gruppe-S header and overpipe
Invidia front pipe
Everything else is stock.
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:23 PM   #2
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no logs.... no help
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:40 PM   #3
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no logs.... no help
Good point. My logs are LONG. I'll go take a quick WOT pull after a few minutes of driving and post that.
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:21 PM   #4
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Logged 3 WOT pulls, and now have another very lean area that I didn't have before, in the 2k RPMs. That may be due to compensations but it has me concerned that it's going that lean. The first two pulls show the lean 4k area. The third pull looks good in that area.

I'm new to tuning this platform, I thought I understood compensations and how at least fueling is getting calculated, but I can't find what would be causing these spots to vary so much in AFR. Anywhere to start looking would be a great help.

If it helps, I started with the OTS tune from OFT that I had been running on this car, and modified that. All I've modified is a little MAF scaling, and OL fueling targets. I rescaled my maps for boost and pulled about 6* of timing at full boost and ~10* or so for the next load column dependent upon RPM. These pulls were taken after starting and driving the car about 5-6 times for about 1-1.5 hours driving total. Maybe 40-50 miles though.

https://datazap.me/u/sprungts/wot-pulls?log=0&data=1

Last edited by SprungtS; 10-20-2020 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:29 AM   #5
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Engine load limits set correctly?

You can use the Engine Load Comp table to help you out if the MAF scale is close enough. I guess the VE can cause these leanings out, I wouldn't say that the one at 4250 RPM is going crazy lean but it's not ideal.

PI Ratio is not normally doing anything crazy there, but depends on whether you're still running OEM/OFT values or custom for the blower.
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:05 AM   #6
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log the port amd direct injector pulse widths see if the pulse widths actualy drop off if they dont it may be high valve overlap in that rpm range creating a false lean reading especially with boost


as Kode said also check your not hitting load limits at that rpm


check di pulse witchs not over about 6 ms and port about 15 ms max




also check the di pressure isnt tapering off this may mean the di has hit max fuel delivery limits in the table before it hits max pulse width. set the di max delivery to 1 at all rpm
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Old 10-24-2020, 04:16 AM   #7
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Thank you both for the responses, I just now saw this. Definitely gives me a good starting point from here.

@Kodename47 - I'm running the OFT values for PI/DI ratios, nothing changes above 2400 RPM at full load. That was something I thought of because I thought I'd seen people with that kind of problem before. Load limits are as follows, and I thought sufficient, but who knows - I may not understand the table correctly (Also honestly not sure if I copied these from somewhere, or if I just increased them across the board for boost):
800 1000 1200 2000 2200 2400 2500 3000 3200
1.2 1.4 1.6 2.0 2.2 2.4 2.6 3.0 3.2

@steve99 - Thank you, thank you, thank you for suggesting logging pulsewidths. I thought of the possibility of valve overlap causing it, but I couldn't fathom a way to test for that. I'm guessing that depending upon sensor outputs, cam timing is adjusted such that on one pull I could have more overlap than another?
Also, is DI max delivery the same as "DI Quantity Maximum"? Currently has a value of .9 up through 4800 RPM and then .75 from 5200-6400, and .82 from 6800 up.

Thank you both again for the help!
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SprungtS View Post
Thank you both for the responses, I just now saw this. Definitely gives me a good starting point from here.

@Kodename47 - I'm running the OFT values for PI/DI ratios, nothing changes above 2400 RPM at full load. That was something I thought of because I thought I'd seen people with that kind of problem before. Load limits are as follows, and I thought sufficient, but who knows - I may not understand the table correctly (Also honestly not sure if I copied these from somewhere, or if I just increased them across the board for boost):
800 1000 1200 2000 2200 2400 2500 3000 3200
1.2 1.4 1.6 2.0 2.2 2.4 2.6 3.0 3.2

@steve99 - Thank you, thank you, thank you for suggesting logging pulsewidths. I thought of the possibility of valve overlap causing it, but I couldn't fathom a way to test for that. I'm guessing that depending upon sensor outputs, cam timing is adjusted such that on one pull I could have more overlap than another?
Also, is DI max delivery the same as "DI Quantity Maximum"? Currently has a value of .9 up through 4800 RPM and then .75 from 5200-6400, and .82 from 6800 up.

Thank you both again for the help!

in DI max quantity make the entire table 1


vavle timing should be consistent if load vs rpm same conditions.


if your on stock Port injectors you want about 35% port in the pi di tables at all load\rpm above load 1. You can run say 50% port below say 3000 rpm but over load 1 over 3000 you want 35% in port


if you run more port that 35% on stock injectors atvhighbtpm\load it will run out of capacity


max port pulse width about 15 max di about 6 ms
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:49 AM   #9
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over load 1 over 3000 you want 35% in port
Really?? I'm no where near 35%.... much closer to the stock settings TBH. As I run a Sprintex I can confirm 35% port ratio is very conservative for pump fuel. Perhaps for E85 and systems that provide higher boost, that's worth a go but otherwise I'd take the higher rate of DI any day. At stock % you still get more port injected fuel to help the mixture.
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Old 10-24-2020, 08:49 AM   #10
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Really?? I'm no where near 35%.... much closer to the stock settings TBH. As I run a Sprintex I can confirm 35% port ratio is very conservative for pump fuel. Perhaps for E85 and systems that provide higher boost, that's worth a go but otherwise I'd take the higher rate of DI any day. At stock % you still get more port injected fuel to help the mixture.

yeah for sure you can run more or less port especualliy at lower rpm/loads.


but above say 5000 higher loads the port to di seems to get max fue flow round the 35% port 65 di, on petrol at lower boost you got more options but on e85 the 35% port or arround that seems to balance the two systems reasnobly well
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Old 10-24-2020, 09:10 AM   #11
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Really?? I'm no where near 35%.... much closer to the stock settings TBH. As I run a Sprintex I can confirm 35% port ratio is very conservative for pump fuel. Perhaps for E85 and systems that provide higher boost, that's worth a go but otherwise I'd take the higher rate of DI any day. At stock % you still get more port injected fuel to help the mixture.
i tuned mine (hks v2 unrestricted, only E5 fuel pump) to have basically a fixed 5.8-5.9ms of DI during the entire pull till redline, so until very high rpm PI ratio is also quite low
But from around 6800 i need to increase to around 35%, because i'm reaching 6ms DI, around 5v of maf and PI is at max around 15.5-16ms

I think steve wanted to say that 35% is around the max PI usage you can use when full boost with stock injectors
if 35% is not enough and car leans out is definitely time for bigger injectors
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Old 10-24-2020, 10:47 AM   #12
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yeah for sure you can run more or less port especualliy at lower rpm/loads.


but above say 5000 higher loads the port to di seems to get max fue flow round the 35% port 65 di, on petrol at lower boost you got more options but on e85 the 35% port or arround that seems to balance the two systems reasnobly well
Well just to put into perspective, I had no fuelling issues on pump fuel with the Sprintex at less than 20% PI ratio at max RPM. I can understand if you want a blanket setting to be able to run E85 without having to reconfigure maps, but there is not enough airflow through a Sprintex to have to run more than that. I've actually used the facelift PI Ratio maps as a basis as they run more PI through the midrange and found that helps.

Remember general rule of thumb is that more DI ratio will require more advance for similar power, I expect this is down to poorer mixture in the cylinder, but it does give extra cooling so will allow you to run harder more consistently. You want the best balance and I believe that when they recalibrated the tunes for the facelift, this is something that they had determined over the life of the car. Also, there is no part of the map when the PIs suddenly switch on, like on the original maps, so you get smoother fuelling as a result. Without a dyno, I don't imagine there is going to be a large difference - but I wouldn't go straying too far from OEM without good reason.
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:36 PM   #13
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Well just to put into perspective, I had no fuelling issues on pump fuel with the Sprintex at less than 20% PI ratio at max RPM. I can understand if you want a blanket setting to be able to run E85 without having to reconfigure maps, but there is not enough airflow through a Sprintex to have to run more than that. I've actually used the facelift PI Ratio maps as a basis as they run more PI through the midrange and found that helps.

Remember general rule of thumb is that more DI ratio will require more advance for similar power, I expect this is down to poorer mixture in the cylinder, but it does give extra cooling so will allow you to run harder more consistently. You want the best balance and I believe that when they recalibrated the tunes for the facelift, this is something that they had determined over the life of the car. Also, there is no part of the map when the PIs suddenly switch on, like on the original maps, so you get smoother fuelling as a result. Without a dyno, I don't imagine there is going to be a large difference - but I wouldn't go straying too far from OEM without good reason.

yes agree
ive been using the facelift ratios for a while now on all cars


correct ive found about 35% pi gets you max fuel delivery from both systems for e85 you can usualky get about 10psi on a fairly efficient turbo without having to resort to bigger pumps and injectors on e85
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:23 AM   #14
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yes agree
ive been using the facelift ratios for a while now on all cars
@steve99 mind elaborating more on this? What other observations did you notice from switching from the old 2013-2016 PI/DI ratios to the new 2017+ ratios?
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