Front camber for track...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Petah78

A larger rear bar to help with rotation is something I learned with FWD platforms but people on this forum swears by stiffer/larger front sway bar to mitigate understeer. I am very confused now. LOL.

Context.

A lot of AutoX'ers, and folks who drive by loading primarily the front only, will want more front bar for faster response, which is then perceived as more grip, before the car ultimately just pushes.

You're absolutely correct; in static cornering, more rear bar will get you faster rear loading, which also means faster rear over-loading, which can result in rotation, and if well balanced, a very nice well timed rotation that only happens on demand.

I've said larger rear bar since 2012; the OEMs implemented that in 2017.

[mr.whiskers]

I have a question for all the experienced guys out there.

I am running a stock 22 brz in novice class. Base model on Premacies.

After I got the OEM camber bolts in the front the alignment guy said he was able to get 1.5 degree one side and 1.2 degree on the other. Going to an autocross event felt like the car handles totally different. My first run I felt like i was on ice or something. The rear was just running away from me in corners. Very oversteery compared to before.

This is my first rwd car so while the first autocross run without camber bolts felt different I quickly got the hang of it and even turned off traction control on the last run and did fine. Car felt pretty balanced and neutral. With negative camber on the front my 4th run I turned off traction completely and did a 360 degree spin after one of the turns. This freaked me out a bit, because I think of myself as a conservative driver, in my previous 6 events in different cars I never spun out and I even barely hit cones.

I did manage to adapt and on my last run with traction set in Track mode, reducing the rear tire PSI to 33, I managed a pretty smooth run improving my time by 1.7 seconds and grabbing first in Novice class.

But I am just curious is this a typical behaviour of a car after getting some negative camber on the front?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mr.whiskers

I have a question for all the experienced guys out there.

I am running a stock 22 brz in novice class. Base model on Premacies.

After I got the OEM camber bolts in the front the alignment guy said he was able to get 1.5 degree one side and 1.2 degree on the other. Going to an autocross event felt like the car handles totally different. My first run I felt like i was on ice or something. The rear was just running away from me in corners. Very oversteery compared to before.

This is my first rwd car so while the first autocross run without camber bolts felt different I quickly got the hang of it and even turned off traction control on the last run and did fine. Car felt pretty balanced and neutral. With negative camber on the front my 4th run I turned off traction completely and did a 360 degree spin after one of the turns. This freaked me out a bit, because I think of myself as a conservative driver, in my previous 6 events in different cars I never spun out and I even barely hit cones.

I did manage to adapt and on my last run with traction set in Track mode, reducing the rear tire PSI to 33, I managed a pretty smooth run improving my time by 1.7 seconds and grabbing first in Novice class.

But I am just curious is this a typical behaviour of a car after getting some negative camber on the front?

The car only does what you ask it to do. It doesn't have a mind of its own.

Remember, your setup is different, so you need to drive different.

Typical? perhaps.

[treedodger]

Sounds pretty typical for a new RWD driver.
It takes a while to get used to, and train your feet and hands to do the right thing at the right time.
Learning to drift on a skid pad will accelerate the process...and it is a ton of fun.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The car only does what you ask it to do. It doesn't have a mind of its own.

Remember, your setup is different, so you need to drive different.

Typical? perhaps.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by mr.whiskers

I am running a stock 22 brz in novice class. Base model on Premacies.

After I got the OEM camber bolts in the front the alignment guy said he was able to get 1.5 degree one side and 1.2 degree on the other. Going to an autocross event felt like the car handles totally different. My first run I felt like i was on ice or something. The rear was just running away from me in corners. Very oversteery compared to before.

...
With negative camber on the front my 4th run I turned off traction completely and did a 360 degree spin after one of the turns. This freaked me out a bit, because I think of myself as a conservative driver, in my previous 6 events in different cars I never spun out and I even barely hit cones.

I did manage to adapt and on my last run with traction set in Track mode, reducing the rear tire PSI to 33, I managed a pretty smooth run improving my time by 1.7 seconds and grabbing first in Novice class.

But I am just curious is this a typical behaviour of a car after getting some negative camber on the front?

I'm betting you'd have a better time on better tires. From what I've heard, the stock primacies don't have so much residual/sliding grip compared to better more performance oriented tires, so when they start to slide it's harder to gather back up. Student of mine wasn't comfortable turning all the nannies off on his car with Primacies, once he got decent tires he was fine.

If you get comfortable with the Primacies, you'll be in great shape for if/when you go to better more appropriate tires.

Note: -1.2 to -1.5 is still abysmally low front camber for track work, maybe less an issue for autoX? For track you probably want at least -3, I'm -3.5 for street/track...

[cmiovino]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Note: -1.2 to -1.5 is still abysmally low front camber for track work, maybe less an issue for autoX? For track you probably want at least -3, I'm -3.5 for street/track...

For autocross, you typically want -4 degrees up front, probably a hair more than you'd even want for the track and street.

He mentions "OEM camber bolts", which means he's probably trying to stick to SCCA street class. Anyone that was going for a regular track day on a budget would probably just do aftermarket camber bolts with more adjustment ranges.

-1.2 to -1.5 is a lot for those OEM camber bolts. I was only able to get -1.1 and -1.3 on mine (but it matches about -1.3 with me in the car on the alignment rack).

I can also confirm, it's not enough, but it's what we have to work with within the rules. The car generally will understeer before oversteering with a 'light' front bar like my Perrin 19mm on stiff and 200TW RT660's.

[cmiovino]

Originally Posted by mr.whiskers

After I got the OEM camber bolts in the front the alignment guy said he was able to get 1.5 degree one side and 1.2 degree on the other. Going to an autocross event felt like the car handles totally different. My first run I felt like i was on ice or something. The rear was just running away from me in corners. Very oversteery compared to before.

1.5 is a good bit in street class with those bolts. I'd ask for them to be even, even if it was only 1.2 on each side. A good alignment shop would know this.

What you were probably feeling was some increased grip up front from the extra camber and no other changes. If you increase grip in the front, the rear is then going to feel like you're saying "on ice".

I ran a few autocrosses in my 2017 on the stock Primacies. I'm all for learning on a lesser tire than the top 200TW ones because jumping straight to the RT660's or A052's can cover up a lot of mistakes. However on the flipside, the Primacies are so confidence killing, you'll tend to not commit or go as hard as you should, even when you get better tires eventually then. That's actually my issue even after autocrossing for years and years, but doing my first ~5 seasons on all seasons.

If money allows, I'd say go with the Conti ECS or Falken 615k to start. Certainly more grip than the Primacies, but still less than the top 200TW tires so you learn the correct line and smooth inputs.

[mr.whiskers]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm betting you'd have a better time on better tires. From what I've heard, the stock primacies don't have so much residual/sliding grip compared to better more performance oriented tires, so when they start to slide it's harder to gather back up. Student of mine wasn't comfortable turning all the nannies off on his car with Primacies, once he got decent tires he was fine.

If you get comfortable with the Primacies, you'll be in great shape for if/when you go to better more appropriate tires.

Note: -1.2 to -1.5 is still abysmally low front camber for track work, maybe less an issue for autoX? For track you probably want at least -3, I'm -3.5 for street/track...

Yes I will eventually upgrade the tires, but for now will learn on the Primacies. I think I gotta be more careful with steering and throttle inputs in the turns.

From what I understand to stay street class in AutoX I am only allowed the OEM camber bolts and 1.5 degree is pretty much the highest you can expect with those, some people I heard get less.

[mr.whiskers]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

What you were probably feeling was some increased grip up front from the extra camber and no other changes. If you increase grip in the front, the rear is then going to feel like you're saying "on ice".

This is probably it. It just freaked me out a bit, wanted to rule out any other issues ( I was thinking maybe alignment place messed something up because nothing else changed on the car)

[treedodger]

Maybe it was just more seat time than the tires for your student.

I found the Primacies to a great learning tire with lots of audible feedback and progressive break away. Very forgiving at the limit, and ridiculously fun to slide around, compared to a stickier tires like a Maxxis RC1, RS-4, MPS4 or SX2.

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm betting you'd have a better time on better tires. From what I've heard, the stock primacies don't have so much residual/sliding grip compared to better more performance oriented tires, so when they start to slide it's harder to gather back up. Student of mine wasn't comfortable turning all the nannies off on his car with Primacies, once he got decent tires he was fine.

If you get comfortable with the Primacies, you'll be in great shape for if/when you go to better more appropriate tires.

[cmiovino]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Context.

A lot of AutoX'ers, and folks who drive by loading primarily the front only, will want more front bar for faster response, which is then perceived as more grip, before the car ultimately just pushes.

You're absolutely correct; in static cornering, more rear bar will get you faster rear loading, which also means faster rear over-loading, which can result in rotation, and if well balanced, a very nice well timed rotation that only happens on demand.

I've said larger rear bar since 2012; the OEMs implemented that in 2017.

For what it's worth, I went from the stock bar and endlinks to a 19mm Perrin bar on stiff (72% increase) for autocross only, DS class. I can't say it's a great comparison because I also changed tires and went with the RT660's this year over the A052's this year due to price/available. However, I can't say I love the even moderately stiffer bar.

Many others with gen 2's and even what was recommended for the gen 1's was more like a 20mm Whiteline (+~125% I believe), or even higher into the 22mm area and 200%+ increases.

Even with the Perrin 19mm, I still feel like it causes the car to push initially and even mid-corner sometimes. I can't image was a 22mm would do. I've very much debated moving it down to the soft setting (only +25%) or going back to stock with just endlinks.

... but then again, tire change too, so it very well could be because of that also. My 2017 already has the slightly larger rear bar too.

[fminicooper]

Originally Posted by Muskoka800

You may consider double camber bolts.
16mm top location and 14mm lower hole.
My alignment guy said -3.5 was achievable with both bolts and Pedders top mounts which give only -.75.
With your camber plates you might find -4.5 possible.
Good Luck!

Same configuration here, worked very good.

16mm top location and 14mm lower hole + Pedders top mounts (additional -.75)

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by treedodger

Maybe it was just more seat time than the tires for your student.

Actually, as I think about it he was specifically referring to a performance driving school he'd done where they did a wet slalom with nannies turned off and he said he could not keep from looping it on the Primacies. As it turned out we had rain on the track day I instructed him, with standing water, I took him out in my car on newish RE71Rs and he was amazed at the sliding grip they had vs. Primacies. Next event he was on (I forget exactly which) 200tw tires and found them a lot more predictable and easier to drive at the limit vs. Primacies.
At least that's my recollection, it's been a few years!

I found the Primacies to a great learning tire with lots of audible feedback and progressive break away. Very forgiving at the limit, and ridiculously fun to slide around, compared to a stickier tires like a Maxxis RC1, RS-4, MPS4 or SX2.

Dorifto!
Honestly seems a bit jerky the way grip is regained in 2nd drift in the video. But anyway probably more due to the way you're driving to induce slidey for funzies. Anyway my impression from the 200tw tires I've run on my BRZ (RE71R, Nankang CR-1/CR-S, A052) is that transition from grip to sliding to grip is really smooth and controllable, more so than 300+ tw tires I've tracked on. I've never tracked on Primacies though.

[new2subaru]

If you run Primacies on track everyone will know where you are!