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Wheels | Tires | Spacers | Hub -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack Specific topics relating to wheels and tires.


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Old 12-14-2020, 04:54 AM   #1
gpvecchi
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Rear toe suggestions

Guys, I read some threads here, but I'm not sure what to do...
I have -1.5 degrees camber and 0 toe front and rear.
When I step on the gas with turned wheels the back seems to spin fastly...
Do you think that giving 0.1 degrees rear toe in per wheel will help?
Thank you very much!
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Old 12-14-2020, 08:10 AM   #2
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My preferable settings for road are the camber settings you already have,
1mm per wheel to out front (for better steering response),
1/2mm per wheel toe in rear (for better rear stability).
Some more camber for track use, depending on the tires and the specific track.
1mm for 18" wheels is about 8' toe per wheel.
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Old 12-14-2020, 08:15 AM   #3
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0.15 toe in total can help stabilize the rear.
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Old 12-14-2020, 08:17 AM   #4
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Mark Higgins BRZ in the Isle of Man uses more or less the same alignment for the special stages that are on public roads, similar with most other European roads (2:16"):

Bear in mind his car is a road car with road bushes and except his coilovers and roll bar it's completely similar with ours!
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Old 12-14-2020, 08:37 AM   #5
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Are you referring to wheel spin? If so, I don't think alignment will make a big difference unless you currently running an extreme amount of camber or toe. I would suggest playing with tire pressures and getting better tires or LSD.

As reference, I'm running 0.18 total toe-in for the rear and I also encounter wheel spin issues which I attribute to low-grip situations and poor LSD. How you control the throttle and the vehicle speed will also affect how severe the wheel spin is.

Last edited by SCFD; 12-14-2020 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 12-14-2020, 09:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCFD View Post
Are you referring to wheel spin? If so, I don't think alignment will make a big difference unless you currently running an extreme amount of camber or toe. I would suggest playing with tire pressures and getting better tires or LSD.

As reference, I'm running 0.18 total toe-in for the rear and I also encounter wheel spin issues which I attribute to low-grip situations and poor LSD. How you control the throttle and the vehicle speed will also affect how severe the wheel spin is.
Although I prefer the car to be as stable as possible cause it makes you drive it faster I'd like the rear sliding whenever possible, with the above settings sliding is simply more controllable
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Old 12-14-2020, 09:29 AM   #7
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Can you give us an example of when it doesn't seem appropriate that you'd lose rear grip and you do?

For example-

The behavior you're experiencing should be expected if:

You're already turning and press the gas pedal hard suddenly
You're driving on a road with debris ( sand/dirt)
You're driving on a tire not meant for performance driving
You're at a high RPM when you start applying gas pedal pressure
You're facing downhill and turning
Your tire pressures are too high
Your new coilovers have too much rebound
Your new coilovers are bottoming out mid corner
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Old 12-14-2020, 09:52 AM   #8
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Regarding the behaviour, my car was always like that, but I always had 0 toe. I pointed to the old suspension setup, but this is not the case.
225/40-18 Pilot Sport 4 (not S, not available in EU).
The issue is (I don't know the correct english terms): the only way to prevent spinning, is giving (a few) retarded gas just when I'm going out of the turn, if I anticipate the back starts spinning.
Tyre pressure is 2.4 bar on all 4 wheels, with a professionally calibrated manometer.
This happens a lot on slow turns (2nd-3rd gear), and not at high speed.
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Old 12-14-2020, 10:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpvecchi View Post
Regarding the behaviour, my car was always like that, but I always had 0 toe. I pointed to the old suspension setup, but this is not the case.
225/40-18 Pilot Sport 4 (not S, not available in EU).
The issue is (I don't know the correct english terms): the only way to prevent spinning, is giving (a few) retarded gas just when I'm going out of the turn, if I anticipate the back starts spinning.
Tyre pressure is 2.4 bar on all 4 wheels, with a professionally calibrated manometer.
This happens a lot on slow turns (2nd-3rd gear), and not at high speed.
How old are the tires? My personal experience with Michelin is that they do not age well and grip drops off even though you might still have tread left.

Maybe consider dropping the rear tire pressure to 2.2 bar? I hear of people running 2 bar for autocross when using extreme summer tires such as Hankook RS-4 or Bridgestone RE71-R. I've never driven on the Pilot Sport 4 but I assume it also has a decently stiff sidewall.
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Old 12-14-2020, 11:03 AM   #10
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Toe-in won't prevent wheels from spinning out if you give engine too many beans or car lacks grip (due tire choice, aero setup, road pavement type, overload or mass transfer at specific maneuver).
However car will still feel more stable even if traction loss. Even on ice/snow car you will need to fight/correct less to keep going straight with rear wheels drifting, i found also being able to accelerate out of corners easier, step on gas quicker, with rear toe-in, vs zero toe, which imho was too nervous, and while eases rotation, i prefer minding other things on track then spending all concentration workarounding or getting ready for alignment quirks.
Toe-in is like presteered wheels to centerline of car. When car gets slightly sideways, one wheel doesn't push inside anymore, while wheel on side car's rear slipped to steers in even more, tending to restore car to straight trajectory. When in corner you lean less on inside tire, more on outer, due mass transfer more grip going to outer tire that is pre-steered inside again trying to move that car end with toe-in back inside turn, not slip out.
Drawbacks are slightly increased tire wear (but not that bad to make tragedy of it, if toe is within reasonable range), and a bit less willingless to rotate that end in turns, but as everyhing is compromise, i much prefer that extra stability, from what i tried in different alignments, as there are several means to get more rotation with driver inputs, if wished.
If you decide against rear toe-in .. at very least set toe on both sides as even as possible.
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Old 12-14-2020, 11:50 AM   #11
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1) Stepping on the gas with the wheels turned is generally thought of as bad technique. The fix is in your steering inputs.

2) Most people seem to prefer some rear toe in for stability.
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Old 12-14-2020, 12:07 PM   #12
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steverife: obviously i do (1.) simultaneously & proportional to unwinding steering wheel back, opposite to trail-braking. Still, zero toe was a bit too nervous, too often did mistakes with accelerating out (and obviously having to lift or countersteer noticeably hurt exit speed), due what erred on safe side way too much. Rear toe-in helped a lot.
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Old 12-14-2020, 01:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCFD View Post
How old are the tires? My personal experience with Michelin is that they do not age well and grip drops off even though you might still have tread left. .
Happened to me with MPSS on the FD. I thought something was "off" with my setup as well for a while, but in the end the tires had just gone from quite good to utter garbage over the 8 months or so I had stored them while driving on NT01s throughout track season. Also had about half tread depth remaining. Tires were 2 years old.
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Old 12-15-2020, 03:34 AM   #14
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It's not a tyre matter, it has been always so with 3 different new tyres. I think that @churchx focused the exact behavior.
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