(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by mrg666

There is no NA FA24, no hi-rev either ... yet. You are assuming things over you have already assumed. I can't read more of it.

Pretty sure there was no NA FA20 in use before they shoved it in the twins either.

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on the FA series anyway. It is not that great.

[squall leonhart]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

the only reason the FA24 is brought up constantly is because
1.) the FA20 is N/A. The assumption is that the next car will maintain the N/A route.
2.) the only real feasible way of making more power without forced induction is to increase the size of the thing or change engines entirely.
3.) Its only natural to go with the FA24 since it already exists and is an upsized FA20 more or less with a turbo. Just remove the turbo and you have a N/A FA24.
4.) pull some numbers out of your butt that is actually achievable higher than what the FA20 can produce.

No one talks about the FB25 because thats an economy engine and doesnt rev high. No one talks anything with turbos because....this car has no turbos (FA20 DIT, FA16DIT, is out)
Subaru doesnt really produce anything larger or without turbo.
Toyota engine rumors were thrown around because of the TNGA rumor, which already doesnt make alot of sense. Plus they dont really have a motor that fits the bill either the 2.0 in the Corolla or the 2.5L in the Camry/Rav might be the most viable ones they currently have. But if they're anything like the previous gen motors they are NOT fun, racy, rev happy motors. (the Yaris GR might be the most viable motor for the application though, 1.6L turbo i3 with 257ish hp)

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but the only stuff that ever pops up when I search 8AR-FTS is swap threads...

BUT, I feel like the 86 really should have the 8AR-FTS engine. I mean, the bore/stroke is 86.0mm, it's already made by Toyota/Lexus in a RWD platform. Just needs a MT. (and yes, I realize the chassis would probably benefit from some reworking...but they are already planning to do this for a 2nd gen...right?)

It's not something I've really put much research into, because my opinion really won't affect anything. But what can I say. I would rather the car came with a Toyota engine, (and from a Toyota factory...) and that one is a proper 2 liter making a healthy power number, and seems it could fit the bill without "starting research from scratch" as I recall people saying Toyota would have to do to have an engine that would work in the twins.

But...again, I realize I'm pretty uninformed about the whole thing. But that's the whole point of the internet...I can have an opinion based off limited facts and information and make bold statements about what SHOULD BE...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Pretty sure there was no NA FA20 in use before they shoved it in the twins either.

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on the FA series anyway. It is not that great.

Better than an EJ though!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by squall leonhart

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but the only stuff that ever pops up when I search 8AR-FTS is swap threads...

BUT, I feel like the 86 really should have the 8AR-FTS engine. I mean, the bore/stroke is 86.0mm, it's already made by Toyota/Lexus in a RWD platform. Just needs a MT. (and yes, I realize the chassis would probably benefit from some reworking...but they are already planning to do this for a 2nd gen...right?)

It's not something I've really put much research into, because my opinion really won't affect anything. But what can I say. I would rather the car came with a Toyota engine, (and from a Toyota factory...) and that one is a proper 2 liter making a healthy power number, and seems it could fit the bill without "starting research from scratch" as I recall people saying Toyota would have to do to have an engine that would work in the twins.

But...again, I realize I'm pretty uninformed about the whole thing. But that's the whole point of the internet...I can have an opinion based off limited facts and information and make bold statements about what SHOULD BE...

It's going to be a Subaru engine, just like it's going to be a Subaru platform. Toyota isn't making this in any of their factories so any major component is pretty much going to be from Subaru.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Better than an EJ though!

Yeah I agree, I have been working on one lately. I'd like to see them get away from a Subie engine, but it is not going to happen with the continued partnership.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

the only reason the FA24 is brought up constantly is because
1.) the FA20 is N/A. The assumption is that the next car will maintain the N/A route.
2.) the only real feasible way of making more power without forced induction is to increase the size of the thing or change engines entirely.
3.) Its only natural to go with the FA24 since it already exists and is an upsized FA20 more or less with a turbo. Just remove the turbo and you have a N/A FA24.
4.) pull some numbers out of your butt that is actually achievable higher than what the FA20 can produce.

No one talks about the FB25 because thats an economy engine and doesnt rev high. No one talks anything with turbos because....this car has no turbos (FA20 DIT, FA16DIT, is out)
Subaru doesnt really produce anything larger or without turbo.
Toyota engine rumors were thrown around because of the TNGA rumor, which already doesnt make alot of sense. Plus they dont really have a motor that fits the bill either the 2.0 in the Corolla or the 2.5L in the Camry/Rav might be the most viable ones they currently have. But if they're anything like the previous gen motors they are NOT fun, racy, rev happy motors. (the Yaris GR might be the most viable motor for the application though, 1.6L turbo i3 with 257ish hp)

2 things to note here & this isn't pin pointing at you only, but to everyone who thinking about FA24 is a solution.
1. I've talked with few engineers from Toyota side and they're still baffled on why Subaru to making the way they're making their engine. Engine is so unbalanced. Even in US, engine shops have seen huge difference in weight in each cylinders. Hell, if Honda engineers see it, they'll laugh at how bad it is. Even GR engineers stated that, if they fully build engine FA20 the way Toyota build it, it can easily push 220 safely and proven that w 86GRMN. But Subaru doesn't not want to change the way they build the engine (for cost cutting or whatever) they'll make hit or miss engine aka ticking bomb. It took long time to Tada-san tell them how to build this FA engine. They didn't want to hear what he gotta say, but had to listen. Now, they use that knowledge to make FA20DIT, which I would say damn good engine. BUT that information was giving from Toyota side, so you can take it as a grain of salt... I feel like history of EJ engine pretty much proven this. BUT that can be said the same w Toyota US dealership mech too, so Toyota can't really say much lol
2. List stock Subaru 4 cylinder boxer engine that's over 2L that have higher rpm than FA20 or EJ20. I'll wait. Cuz there aren't any. Even the famous 22B (EJ22) can't rev higher than EJ20. Look at JDM STI vs USDM STI redline. Yeah... it's different for sure, cuz JDM uses EJ207 vs USDM uses EJ257. That 0.5L make HUGE difference. So IDK why ppl are so hyped about FA24 gonna be equipped in next gen. Technically, FA24 was build for heavy car aka having ton of power low end w no power high end. Of course, that can be changed, but Subaru gonna change THAT much difference? Hm... questionable. Subaru's boxer engine already dying at high end from NA form adding extra 0.4L with extra weight on the car is like making fat person sprint. Don't get me wrong, you'll feel a lot more tq than current 86, but what do you get at the high end? Nothing. Oh wait, after tq dip, you got +-1k rpm til it'll hit the redline. Oh~ you thought tq dip was only FA thing? FA20 causes more tq dip than other Subaru boxer engine due to switch of DI to PI, but tq dip is in EVERY Subaru boxer engine. Recently Subaru is hiding it well w turbo spooling early.

With that said, take my info as a grain of salt. I don't have ALL the info of next gen. All I can say is adding power or spec on the paper isn't always the answer. This car, 86/BRZ was the example of that. Now, greedy people want a bit of juice from this car is making this car isn't what made this car is. Not everything is bad from next gen (I've heard few good infos), but we can only hope and guestimate.

[Stephen W.]

Originally Posted by weederr33

I was recently window shopping for a Lotus Elise and it got me thinking, "wow this car would be great with the Corolla motor and a supercharger slapped on it."

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

So a Lotus Exige then.lol

Originally Posted by weederr33

gotta put poor man's in front of that, but yep! lol

So what you really want is a Lotus Elise SC, eh?

[Dave-ROR]

But @ichitaka05 - you can make a larger displacement run to higher RPMs, you just need to design it correctly. Proper manifold design, cam profiles, etc. Displacement by itself doesn't determine max RPM.. however heavy pistons won't work well at higher RPM

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

But @ichitaka05 - you can make a larger displacement run to higher RPMs, you just need to design it correctly. Proper manifold design, cam profiles, etc. Displacement by itself doesn't determine max RPM.. however heavy pistons won't work well at higher RPM

That's my point. Subaru isn't going to do that work. Hell, Subaru knows that to have performance boxer engine, they need to have dry sump since mid 90's. Have they done that? Nope! They know WRX/STI manifold issue and did they fix it? Nope! Issue w glue/seal to connect the block? Nope! I get what you mean by displacement =/= rpm. But how Subaru is build the engine, that's the formula. Until they change the way they build the engine.

[Lantanafrs2]

Its built to a low price point (unless you try to buy a new one). My car performs satisfactorily at this point but my old mr2 felt better to me even though it would be trounced by my frs. I'll never be a Subaru fan after owning this car.

[squall leonhart]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

It's going to be a Subaru engine, just like it's going to be a Subaru platform. Toyota isn't making this in any of their factories so any major component is pretty much going to be from Subaru.

Oh believe me, I don't think there's any remote chance that it happens. I'm saying what I think makes more sense. Toyota builds better, more reliable engines (IMO). The posts in between my last post and this one seem to point to Toyota wanting a better engine (or at least better balanced version of the Subaru engine), and Subaru really not caring that their design isn't so great. I just wish we'd get an engine from the manufacturer that cares about the quality of their engines.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

2 things to note here & this isn't pin pointing at you only, but to everyone who thinking about FA24 is a solution.
1. I've talked with few engineers from Toyota side and they're still baffled on why Subaru to making the way they're making their engine. Engine is so unbalanced. Even in US, engine shops have seen huge difference in weight in each cylinders. Hell, if Honda engineers see it, they'll laugh at how bad it is. Even GR engineers stated that, if they fully build engine FA20 the way Toyota build it, it can easily push 220 safely and proven that w 86GRMN. But Subaru doesn't not want to change the way they build the engine (for cost cutting or whatever) they'll make hit or miss engine aka ticking bomb. It took long time to Tada-san tell them how to build this FA engine. They didn't want to hear what he gotta say, but had to listen. Now, they use that knowledge to make FA20DIT, which I would say damn good engine. BUT that information was giving from Toyota side, so you can take it as a grain of salt... I feel like history of EJ engine pretty much proven this. BUT that can be said the same w Toyota US dealership mech too, so Toyota can't really say much lol
2. List stock Subaru 4 cylinder boxer engine that's over 2L that have higher rpm than FA20 or EJ20. I'll wait. Cuz there aren't any. Even the famous 22B (EJ22) can't rev higher than EJ20. Look at JDM STI vs USDM STI redline. Yeah... it's different for sure, cuz JDM uses EJ207 vs USDM uses EJ257. That 0.5L make HUGE difference. So IDK why ppl are so hyped about FA24 gonna be equipped in next gen. Technically, FA24 was build for heavy car aka having ton of power low end w no power high end. Of course, that can be changed, but Subaru gonna change THAT much difference? Hm... questionable. Subaru's boxer engine already dying at high end from NA form adding extra 0.4L with extra weight on the car is like making fat person sprint. Don't get me wrong, you'll feel a lot more tq than current 86, but what do you get at the high end? Nothing. Oh wait, after tq dip, you got +-1k rpm til it'll hit the redline. Oh~ you thought tq dip was only FA thing? FA20 causes more tq dip than other Subaru boxer engine due to switch of DI to PI, but tq dip is in EVERY Subaru boxer engine. Recently Subaru is hiding it well w turbo spooling early.

With that said, take my info as a grain of salt. I don't have ALL the info of next gen. All I can say is adding power or spec on the paper isn't always the answer. This car, 86/BRZ was the example of that. Now, greedy people want a bit of juice from this car is making this car isn't what made this car is. Not everything is bad from next gen (I've heard few good infos), but we can only hope and guestimate.

You mean Subaru applied the improvements on FA20D, that they learned from Toyota, to FA20DIT as well? You mean FA24 is unbalanced not our FA20D, right?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by mrg666

You mean Subaru applied the improvements on FA20D, that they learned from Toyota, to FA20DIT as well? You mean FA24 is unbalanced not our FA20D, right?

I’ll be honest, tech on FA engine (FA20DIT, FA24 & so on). Toyota did give good amount of knowledge... but not enough. Sadly Subaru didn’t applying all of em. If they did, they would of kept 2 liter pushing 220 or even 230hp instead of 2.4 liter w 217 or whatever articles are claiming

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by squall leonhart

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but the only stuff that ever pops up when I search 8AR-FTS is swap threads...

BUT, I feel like the 86 really should have the 8AR-FTS engine. I mean, the bore/stroke is 86.0mm, it's already made by Toyota/Lexus in a RWD platform. Just needs a MT. (and yes, I realize the chassis would probably benefit from some reworking...but they are already planning to do this for a 2nd gen...right?)

It's not something I've really put much research into, because my opinion really won't affect anything. But what can I say. I would rather the car came with a Toyota engine, (and from a Toyota factory...) and that one is a proper 2 liter making a healthy power number, and seems it could fit the bill without "starting research from scratch" as I recall people saying Toyota would have to do to have an engine that would work in the twins.

But...again, I realize I'm pretty uninformed about the whole thing. But that's the whole point of the internet...I can have an opinion based off limited facts and information and make bold statements about what SHOULD BE...

If Toyota was going to make the car you want they would have done it in the first place. They are not going to all of a sudden do it themselves.