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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 10-10-2020, 02:46 AM   #99
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Great comparison! I really want(ed) a Cayman S but the prices of the 2009+ and the fact that they need *so much* work to track prep really turned me off. The thing that really sucks about them is there are a *lot* of issues once you start tracking these cars (power steering/water pumps, cooling issues, they need an lsd, the list goes on). And I really don't see them being much more fun at all on the street. My FRS is about the best car I've ever driven for street canyon carving due to the combo of short gearing, light weight, and perfect amount of power.


I really wish there was an FRS with a bit more power from the factory for ease of passing & highway fun. Here's to hoping for a BRZ STI (yea, right...). Honestly, I think I'd rather a supercharged FRS over a Cayman S at this point with all the issues they have at the track. Faster, cheaper, and less maintenance. Plus, if you blow an engine on the 86 its <$5k whereas the porsche is ~$20k!
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Old 10-14-2020, 08:47 PM   #100
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Risk of things going bad wrong with Porsches is non-zero. If things go wrong, it's $$$$...

Anyway, that's my 0.02. If I hadn't had the cash on hand to buy it outright with plenty left over to take care of any issues (which it turns out was required), I wouldn't have bought it.

Anybody talking about making payments over 5 years to buy a ~10 year-old Porsche, my advice is don't do it...
^^^This...

Plus it is often not possible. Someone would either need to get a personal loan at a high interest rate, or they would need to find a bank that specializes in giving loans for older vehicles, which is typically also at high interest rates. Most credit unions and banks max out at 10 years on auto loans.



I like the idea of getting a Porsche someday, but I always end up at the same place. I like the look of the 911 over the Cayman, but I want a two-seater that is mid-engine over rear engine. The Cayman's gears are too long to be enjoyable. The 911 is no longer offered in a NA configuration without getting the GT3, which is too expensive. I wouldn't like a 7-speed in the 911 over a 6-speed in a Cayman. The 911 is prohibitive to buy new or lightly used. A three year old Cayman with sub 25k miles is reasonable, but the other complaints turn me off. The older water cooled 911s are the right size/weight, but I don't like the styling, and everything is so out of date. Performance is out of date for the cost, and the other thing is the wide body is only available in the AWD models. The new ones have great styling, but are too big. Besides, the average income of a new 911 owner is $750k. Too far away from me. The 992 looks the best to me, but it is too big and heavy. Although the 3.0TT engine would be best for power, there is the appeal of the GT3 engine, yet it is less usable with a 9k rpm.

I need a smaller bodied 992 mid-engine GT3 touring with aggressive gearing and a 6 speed.
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:50 PM   #101
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I liked the Porsche, but more in the 944 area. The Cayman was a cost cutting solution to save the 911. Provide a mid-engine car with as many common components with the 911. Nice looking car and clever idea though. Not a coincidence that the first Boxster was such a success. But anyway, the BRZ is ending in Europe and we won't have too many options in the future. So, I'll have to preserve my BRZ as long as I can ...
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Old 10-15-2020, 08:36 AM   #102
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Great comparison! I really want(ed) a Cayman S but the prices of the 2009+ and the fact that they need *so much* work to track prep really turned me off.
They don't need much work to track. Adjustable GT-3 front control arms are a good idea to get some front camber. I also had stiffer PASM-option springs swapped in, which turns out was not a direct swap, had to do a couple other mods to correct ride heights at both ends! Coulda/shoulda gotten aftermarket lowering springs... But anyway, those two mods and you have a great street/track car!


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The thing that really sucks about them is there are a *lot* of issues once you start tracking these cars (power steering/water pumps, cooling issues, they need an lsd, the list goes on).
I only tracked mine for four 2-day events, didn't have power steering or water pump issues (I think the 987.2s are not so bad in that regard?). Only ran hot at Thompson Speedway on a 100+F day, after ~3 laps, manageable by short-shifting and early-lifting before brake zones. Mine was a 2.9 non-S tho... After driving a 981 S without lsd at Watkins Glen and NHMS last year, and another at Palmer this year, I'd say that with well-chosen suspension setup an LSD is *not* a requirement on the stickiest street tires (RE71R, A052).

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And I really don't see them being much more fun at all on the street. My FRS is about the best car I've ever driven for street canyon carving due to the combo of short gearing, light weight, and perfect amount of power.
Biggie to me on the street is the Porsche's slooow and nonlinear steering. Combined with large-diameter steering wheel and kickback from bumps, it's just not *nearly* as much fun on the street as the BRZ!

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I really wish there was an FRS with a bit more power from the factory for ease of passing & highway fun. Here's to hoping for a BRZ STI (yea, right...). Honestly, I think I'd rather a supercharged FRS over a Cayman S at this point with all the issues they have at the track. Faster, cheaper, and less maintenance. Plus, if you blow an engine on the 86 its <$5k whereas the porsche is ~$20k!
The problem the FT86 is going to have with *more power* is that the craptastic 55F/45R weight distribution is inherently not going to be able to put it down all that well. A somewhat minor point, but it will cost some time on corner exits at the track vs a proper FR sports car with 50/50 distribution or MR at 45F/55R.

I'd rather they made a proper 2-seat cab-rearward 50/50 version of the Ft86 than just add power!
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Old 10-15-2020, 08:56 AM   #103
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The problem the FT86 is going to have with *more power* is that the craptastic 55F/45R weight distribution is inherently not going to be able to put it down all that well. A somewhat minor point, but it will cost some time on corner exits at the track vs a proper FR sports car with 50/50 distribution or MR at 45F/55R.
I agree with you, but tell this to all the guys who change to forced induction and say that FT86 rides fine. I suppose the majority is mainly drag racers ...
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Old 10-15-2020, 09:01 AM   #104
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I agree with you, but tell this to all the guys who change to forced induction and say that FT86 rides fine. I suppose the majority is mainly drag racers ...
Not all tho, @CSG_Mike has had great results with his FI FT86. I would guess that a good ramp-actuated clutch-type diff is a requirement for FI power. I get power-on both-rears wheelspin out of 2nd gear corners with stock power! Frustrating...
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Old 10-15-2020, 12:50 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post

Biggie to me on the street is the Porsche's slooow and nonlinear steering. Combined with large-diameter steering wheel and kickback from bumps, it's just not *nearly* as much fun on the street as the BRZ!

I wondered about that. I asked the owner of the 15' S I drove the other day if it had variable ratio steering and he didn't think so but it felt slower on center to me.
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Old 10-15-2020, 01:05 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
They don't need much work to track. Adjustable GT-3 front control arms are a good idea to get some front camber. I also had stiffer PASM-option springs swapped in, which turns out was not a direct swap, had to do a couple other mods to correct ride heights at both ends! Coulda/shoulda gotten aftermarket lowering springs... But anyway, those two mods and you have a great street/track car!


I only tracked mine for four 2-day events, didn't have power steering or water pump issues (I think the 987.2s are not so bad in that regard?). Only ran hot at Thompson Speedway on a 100+F day, after ~3 laps, manageable by short-shifting and early-lifting before brake zones. Mine was a 2.9 non-S tho... After driving a 981 S without lsd at Watkins Glen and NHMS last year, and another at Palmer this year, I'd say that with well-chosen suspension setup an LSD is *not* a requirement on the stickiest street tires (RE71R, A052).

Yea, I think the 987.2 fixed a lot of the issues with the 987.1. They are at least a ~$20k premium over the .1 in my area so I kinda stopped doing research past that. Good to hear your cayman was good to you, I definitely like the car and might be more inclined to buy one if the initial purchase price wasn't so expensive.


Quote:
The problem the FT86 is going to have with *more power* is that the craptastic 55F/45R weight distribution is inherently not going to be able to put it down all that well. A somewhat minor point, but it will cost some time on corner exits at the track vs a proper FR sports car with 50/50 distribution or MR at 45F/55R.

I'd rather they made a proper 2-seat cab-rearward 50/50 version of the Ft86 than just add power!
I think you have a point here for the big power builds. I've seen a few videos of LS swapped FRSes and, while fast, looks like a big handful. However, I think with a little boost from a supercharger or (small) turbo would be far from unmanagable, and the track times show that it is quite effective. I've ridden in a turbo FRS at the track with ~250whp and that felt perfect, a little slip but not hairy at all, and was *very* fast.

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Old 10-16-2020, 07:47 AM   #107
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I'd rather they made a proper 2-seat cab-rearward 50/50 version of the Ft86 than just add power!
Or move the transmission back like the 944 and keep the 2+2 seat layout, but these days have been passed even for Porsche. Maximize profits and lower costs is the current motif. Have you seen the new Cayman GTS 4.0? They offered back the 6-cylinder NA motor, but the price was skyrocketed comparing to the previous generation.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:44 AM   #108
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Or move the transmission back like the 944 and keep the 2+2 seat layout, but these days have been passed even for Porsche. Maximize profits and lower costs is the current motif. Have you seen the new Cayman GTS 4.0? They offered back the 6-cylinder NA motor, but the price was skyrocketed comparing to the previous generation.

Yup, key point: cost. Notice how we're always comparing the 86 to much more expensive cars? Like the S2000, Cayman, etc. Those cars had a bunch more $$$ spent in R&D for their respective platform. The 86 punches above its weight in dynamics, and even with added power the chassis handles it fine. Can you put power down like a M/R engine car? Nope, that's just the way it is, but carrying a little front bias isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's one of the things that makes the 86 one of the easier cars to manage at the edge.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:28 AM   #109
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Great post. I did similar comparisons with the 911 before I finally decided on a used BRZ. Been seven years and many happy maintenance free miles since with no regrets. Great looking car, very reasonable purchase cost, super fun to drive, low/no maintenance, inexpensive and easy to modify, and 30+ mpg!

There's still a part of me that wants tire shredding power at the back wheels, but the reality is that's less than 1% of the total driving I do. For everything from short spirited trips around town to long road trips the BRZ is the Swiss Army Knife of sports cars.

Cheers!
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:08 AM   #110
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Like so much else posted on the internet, rumors that the first gen Cayman needs "a lot" of work to be track prepped are totally false. Some issues are real, but again totally overblown.

I've tracked my 15 year old Cayman all weekend in 100° heat. Guess what, no power steering issues. If its not gonna happen under those conditions, it's not gonna happen. The Cayman does have some adjustable camber stock from the factory, but GT3 front control arms can help (though are far far far from the first or only track mod I'd ever consider). Consider that I spent almost $6000 rebuilding/upgrading my suspension (after 100k miles it was needed) and I didn't even consider including GT3 control arms.

Is the M97 engine as robust for track use as the 9A1? No, but it's certainly fine and far from an issue. Install a better AOS and deeper baffled oil sump and most track condition issues are addressed.

Plenty of valid issues that a used Cayman isn't the right option for some people. But stating it requires a lot of track prep isn't one of them.
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:53 AM   #111
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You could have done a dozen Le mons cars and run your own series for the rebuild of a used Cayman.

That would have been exhausting and hectic though.
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Old 10-21-2020, 03:57 PM   #112
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Mine had little issues too. 06 cayman s. Solved ice peddle with stiffer springs. Steering fluid tends to boil and leak a bit. That was pretty much it.
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