..... vs. DC2 Integra Type R

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

it damn better be with the years of technology and a turbo but unlike the ae86 however it will never be a timeless car or considered a classic

the ae86 is not a timeless car. it looks like it was from the 80s but i guess ill agree with the classic thing. my point was that rwd>fwd isnt an absolute term like people are using it.

[4agze]

Originally Posted by fatoni

its also why the cobalt ss destroys the s2k in the scca runoffs or maybe why the mini changed the touring car races overnight. or why the ms3 is better than the ae86....all rhetoric aside i still dont understand what makes fwd cars understeer on off camber downhill turns than a rwd car

[u2b]4z2oZAkWQeM[/u2b]
If you dont get it shown by Japanese pro driver on that video then you dont get it, its same thing why you dont get why people cares about higher rev limit?what more can I do? maybe a picture illustration may help? if this dont work I dont know other way?

Understeer going down hill (NO bad)


if the Mazda speed 3 with a turbo is not better than the 26yrs old AE86 a car that has 1.6liter 112bhp Jujiro Matsuda will roll over his grave

[4agze]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

it damn better be with the years of technology and a turbo but unlike the ae86 however it will never be a timeless car or considered a classic

i cant even believe he compared a car thats 26yrs old vs car thats less than 5 years that has more advance tech & more power kinda stupid

Originally Posted by fatoni

the ae86 is not a timeless car. it looks like it was from the 80s but i guess ill agree with the classic thing. my point was that rwd>fwd isnt an absolute term like people are using it.

say that to millions of people from Japan,UK & USA who go yearly to AE86 festivals.




say that to pro drivers who owns a AE86
Nobuteru Taniguchi
Keiichi tsuchiya
Ueo Katsuhiro
Ken Gushi
Alex Phifer
Taka Aono
Manabu Orido
Akira Iida

I dont see people doing a mazdaspeed 3 festival all around the world

[chopstickz]

Nice pics... now Imagine all of those are FT86s... Maybe in 25 years?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 4agze

[u2b]4z2oZAkWQeM[/u2b]
If you dont get it shown by Japanese pro driver on that video then you dont get it, its same thing why you dont get why people cares about higher rev limit?what more can I do? maybe a picture illustration may help? if this dont work I dont know other way?

Understeer going down hill (NO bad)


if the Mazda speed 3 with a turbo is not better than the 26yrs old AE86 a car that has 1.6liter 112bhp Jujiro Matsuda will roll over his grave

you have proved that there is one fwd car that is worse than one rwd car. i get that but it is a far stretch from rwd > fwd period. do you see what im saying?

i also understand that a fwd may understeer going downhill in this situation you have set up but what i dont get is why you think it will understeer more than a rwd car might

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 4agze

i cant even believe he compared a car thats 26yrs old vs car thats less than 5 years that has more advance tech & more power kinda stupid






say that to millions of people from Japan,UK & USA who go yearly to AE86 festivals.




say that to pro drivers who owns a AE86
Nobuteru Taniguchi
Keiichi tsuchiya
Ueo Katsuhiro
Ken Gushi
Alex Phifer
Taka Aono
Manabu Orido
Akira Iida

I dont see people doing a mazdaspeed 3 festival all around the world

how is it stupid? what is stupid is saying blanket statements like rwd >fwd period and then thinking im out of line for disproving them. according to that criteria it makes perfect sense to compare the two. people racing/drifting a car doesnt mean its timeless. it doesnt even mean they think its timeless. and if that was enough for you, half those people dont even drive corollas anymore. ill admit its becoming a classic but gatherings dont make a car classic. there is an annual pontiac aztec rally. timeless? geo metro club. timeless?

i had an ae86 for years and i liked it but it wasnt really anything special

[4agze]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you have proved that there is one fwd car that is worse than one rwd car. i get that but it is a far stretch from rwd > fwd period. do you see what im saying?

i also understand that a fwd may understeer going downhill in this situation you have set up but what i dont get is why you think it will understeer more than a rwd car might

finally you understand , find my post that says a rear wheel drive car will not understeer more than a fwd. all my illustration and videos only illustrates a fwd understeering on a downhill turn like what I say on my post, your the only one who assume this was a rwd vs fwd.

Originally Posted by fatoni

how is it stupid? what is stupid is saying blanket statements like rwd >fwd period and then thinking im out of line for disproving them. according to that criteria it makes perfect sense to compare the two. people racing/drifting a car doesnt mean its timeless. it doesnt even mean they think its timeless. and if that was enough for you, half those people dont even drive corollas anymore. ill admit its becoming a classic but gatherings dont make a car classic. there is an annual pontiac aztec rally. timeless? geo metro club. timeless?

i had an ae86 for years and i liked it but it wasnt really anything special

If you want to post why you think a AE86 is not a classic or timeless make another topic not here.

find my post that I say RWD> FWD, man read all my post again im not against fwd non of my post say fwd sucks all my post was illustrating understeer on a downhill like what i posted. you are the one who made it a RWD vs FWD & i say stupid cuz it is stupid to compared a newer modern car fwd vs a old car rwd, I know ae86 is not for everyone and I can understand if its not for you thats why you sold it, maybe its not fruity enough or not up to your standards but thats on you.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 4agze

yes its a track at night lol but thats like 7yrs ago I dont do it anymore

only thing I see wrong with a fwd is when elevation change like down hill & off camber turns a fwd will understeer but got to admire how well build a ITR, I remember back then when honda stated that they will bring the ITR here in US soil on limited number & it will be under the acura name and as i remember a lot of honda heads rolled and at the end acura Type-R was a success actually sold out half before it hit the showroom. this reminds you of anything like what going on with the scion FRS right now.

yeah i dont mean to be attacking you if thats what it sounds like. when you said this i kinda inferred that you were talking about only fwd since you bothered to mention that fact. i als assumed that when you quoted someone saying rwd > fwd period and then said thats why they dont make fwd supercars that you agreed with the statement made. i dont think i was really out of line for jumping to either of those conclusions.

at the end of the day is still dont see how this car is going to be sportier or faster or whatever were measuring when compared to the itr

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah i dont mean to be attacking you if thats what it sounds like. when you said this i kinda inferred that you were talking about only fwd since you bothered to mention that fact. i als assumed that when you quoted someone saying rwd > fwd period and then said thats why they dont make fwd supercars that you agreed with the statement made. i dont think i was really out of line for jumping to either of those conclusions.

at the end of the day is still dont see how this car is going to be sportier or faster or whatever were measuring when compared to the itr

I'm sorry, but there are only 2 performance focused situations where "RWD > FWD" is NOT true. Reason #1: when I'm driving on a slick surface. Reason #2: when we're talking about 100-300hp turds. There is a reason that the term FWD Supercar is an oxymoron. (Waits for someone to link some exception the the rule.)

When it comes down to ideal track conditions (anything but ice) FWD has zero performance advantages over RWD. With equal power, handling, tires, weight distribution, etc, a RWD car will handle as good or better than a FWD car. At 200hp, AWD FWD RWD doesn't matter, the cars are just powerful enough to have fun in, but not powerful enough to really maximize their (AWD & RWD) potential. The more power you add, to both cars, the more noticeable the RWD's advantage over the FWD becomes.

ITR's were (and still are) badass cars. I used to love going to ITR racedays and meets with my Honda buddies with me in my Talon and a few other DSMers. It was a really fun rivalry we had back then, but a 250fwhp ITR wasn't touching my stock RX7. Let alone a 350fwhp against my 350rwhp RX7.

All that said, I don't think the FR-S will beat the ITR in any performance categories right out of the box. I just hope the FRS platform is one that improves as you throw more power at it.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

At 200hp, AWD FWD RWD doesn't matter

I completely disagree with this.

Even at 200hp, I can put ALL my power down with my AWD while in a FWD or RWD car I'd be breaking traction with the tires.

Heck, you can have traction issues with a 90hp FWD car unless its running huge R-compounds on a perfectly dry day or something insane like that.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I'm sorry, but there are only 2 performance focused situations where "RWD > FWD" is NOT true. Reason #1: when I'm driving on a slick surface. Reason #2: when we're talking about 100-300hp turds. There is a reason that the term FWD Supercar is an oxymoron. (Waits for someone to link some exception the the rule.)

When it comes down to ideal track conditions (anything but ice) FWD has zero performance advantages over RWD. With equal power, handling, tires, weight distribution, etc, a RWD car will handle as good or better than a FWD car. At 200hp, AWD FWD RWD doesn't matter, the cars are just powerful enough to have fun in, but not powerful enough to really maximize their (AWD & RWD) potential. The more power you add, to both cars, the more noticeable the RWD's advantage over the FWD becomes.

ITR's were (and still are) badass cars. I used to love going to ITR racedays and meets with my Honda buddies with me in my Talon and a few other DSMers. It was a really fun rivalry we had back then, but a 250fwhp ITR wasn't touching my stock RX7. Let alone a 350fwhp against my 350rwhp RX7.

All that said, I don't think the FR-S will beat the ITR in any performance categories right out of the box. I just hope the FRS platform is one that improves as you throw more power at it.

im aware that in most cases a rwd car is going to perform better but it isnt always the case but to play devils advocate a little more with the scenario you mentioned with everything else (power, handling, weight distribution) a fwd will win every time simply because of the minimal drive train losses. do i think fwd is better than rwd? absolutely not but its crazy how people have these crazy expectations simply because of the design choices of this car. i think we are more or less in agreement but i still think there are other times when a fwd has advantages like left foot braking for brake balancing or front to rear grip levels in low traction conditions

[Mr.Jay]

I agree that RWD isnt always better than FWD but for performance and driving pleasure RWD is better than everything IMO (everything is subject to taste)

However saying the 86 is not a timeless car is crazy since all the stuff you mentioned is great and all but the 86 itself is a part of car culture now year from now people will look back and think of how the 86 was a great car, how it help the drift craze, initial d and of course how its spirit inspired the ft86

people will not remember those other cars and while they may have their own events and club they have had no impact on car culture other than being the ugliest mass production car ever (Aztek)

[4agze]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah i dont mean to be attacking you if thats what it sounds like. when you said this i kinda inferred that you were talking about only fwd since you bothered to mention that fact. i als assumed that when you quoted someone saying rwd > fwd period and then said thats why they dont make fwd supercars that you agreed with the statement made. i dont think i was really out of line for jumping to either of those conclusions.

at the end of the day is still dont see how this car is going to be sportier or faster or whatever were measuring when compared to the itr

Thats ok No harm No foul, On the super car I was just stating the fact that no super car was made under a fwd config, I know you'll jump on that quick and loose focus on the debate thats why you added the ae86 vs the MS3 cuz, you know how proud I am on my ae86 and knowing a fwd car is faster better will hurt my ego right? but you didnt count on the years and tech between both cars.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 4agze

Thats ok No harm No foul, On the super car I was just stating the fact that no super car was made under a fwd config, I know you'll jump on that quick and loose focus on the debate thats why you added the ae86 vs the MS3 cuz, you know how proud I am on my ae86 and knowing a fwd car is faster better will hurt my ego right? but you didnt count on the years and tech between both cars.

that wasnt the intention. in fact i really liked the corolla when i had it but going back to school was expensive and i couldnt afford two cars. the 40 miles each way on the freeway in a gutted 23 year old car with crazy suspension wasnt as favorable as the sc400 was so it had to go. now im in the same condition with my miata and my ls430. the ms3 is a better car than the ae86 but id rather have the corolla.