5 Reasons You Shouldn't Care About Horsepower (As Much)

[Bluefire98]

Man someone here mentioned using the 2.5l camry engine. I drove one of the new camry's at work and when you put your foot down, that engine goes! I'd love to see one tuned up like the miata engine, higher compression, premium fuel, higher redline if possible. Then throw that in the 86. The chassis is subaru's so it remains a joint venture. Then it keeps the weight down from the engine being lighter. I might trade mine in for that actually.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

You're right. I'm not being charitable.

I see what you're saying about it being a compromise. I have driven compromises for years (and still do). The problem with a dressed up econobox isn't that it's a compromise, it's that the marketing and customers pretend that compromise turns it into something it isn't.

Charity is a response to poverty. Delusion or pretension isn't poverty. Someone who can afford $38K for a Civic Type R in order to pretend he's driving a sports car isn't likely to need the charity. Someone who is culturally impoverished enough to delude himself into believing he's driving a sports car probably doesn't deserve it.

So no, I'm not feeling particularly charitable about the posermobiles.

Honda actually did a lot more to the type R then slap a good motor in it. They invested a ton of R&D into the front suspension geometry to get it to handle the way it does and inhibit torque steer. It is actually pretty impressive. Yes at it's core it is still a econo box.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Red-86

People like different things.

People also dislike different things. I dislike posermobiles. There are other vehicles I also dislike (especially brodozers), but we weren't talking about those. We were talking about posermobiles because people here sometimes inexplicably want to compare the 86 platform to econoboxes with performance parts shoehorned onto them as an afterthought.

My part of this thread started when someone brought up the Yaris. There is no world in which a Yaris should be even remotely compared with an 86.

Originally Posted by Red-86

Not only do I think that is unfair, but given how many people think the twins are ‘posermobiles’ because they are ‘too slow to be real sportscars*’ you should perhaps be wary of throwing stones inside glass houses.

I don't really care what people driving econoboxes say about this car. If they weren't posers, they would be too busy enjoying their econoboxes to worry about getting validation of their choices from me.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

People also dislike different things. I dislike posermobiles. There are other vehicles I also dislike (especially brodozers), but we weren't talking about those. We were talking about posermobiles because people here sometimes inexplicably want to compare the 86 platform to econoboxes with performance parts shoehorned onto them as an afterthought.

This is a what I feel about BMWs i.e. M4 but it's in the other end of the spectrum. It's a luxury car w/ sport bits added. Still very posermobile IMO.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Red-86

It is interesting. I think one possible reason is that even back in 2012, Toyota knew that the 86 would always be a budget/entry level sportscar. The Supra development story goes that at the 86’s launch, Tada was approached by BMW about a sportscar collaboration (which turned into the Zupra). If true, even then Toyota would have been thinking about vertical product placement, and where a more powerful sportscar would sit in relation to the 86 in the stack.

IOW, even then they were probably happy to leave sufficient HP space above the NA FA20 for a potential Supra in future. Imagine what an anticlimax a new 340 HP Supra would have been in a world where there was already a 300 HP 86 available that was lighter than the Supra could dream of? Doesn’t leave enough breathing space in terms of performance and thus product differentiation.

Having said that, I think 240-260 HP would have been more than fine and still leave a sufficient power gap to the B58 Supra not to be a rival. But, and here is the real problem for those like me wanting more factory HP in the next gen 86, the existence of that turbo 4 Supra with BMW’s B48 engine, which is only pushing out around 260 HP (officially), means that realistically Toyota are unlikely to allow a stock 86 to come too near that. Who would pay more for a heavier 260 HP Supra if you can have a lighter, nimbler 86 with 250 ish HP for less money? This is what really concerns me, that damn B48 Supra encroaches on the HP window people want the mk II 86 to occupy, and the product planners are unlikely to allow that. So I have a sinking feeling it will be a 5-10 HP bump if we are lucky. Hope to be proven wrong!

Edit - one thing that confounds my theory, and confuses me generally, is the base, detuned turbo 4 Supra in Japan that only makes 197 HP, i.e. less than the twins! OK, it has turbo torque, which makes it pull better down low, but still... why release a detuned 197 HP B48 Supra when you also have the 260 HP version available for not much more? It’s not like any versions of the Supra are inexpensive cars, and it can’t save the factory much in manufacturing costs (I imagine it costs almost the same to make both versions of the 4 banger Supra)! So why does it even exist in the lineup, with more weight and less power than the 86? If you wanted a 4 banger Supra, why wouldn’t you get the higher spec one for not much more, every time?

Because Japan. It probably cost them $5 and a bottle of saki to make that version, and it will get more people into the Supra, so why not? Japan always gets all the cool things and the rest of the world gets screwed.

Also it is probably the version all the people who are going to swap the engine buy.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Maybe he isn’t pretending anything but just wants a fast hatchback? What exactly is wrong with that? What is wrong with someone wanting a muscle car, or even a fast SUV? People like different things. I’m not a muscle car or SUV fan but I don’t insult those people or get offended because they prioritise different things to me.



Why do you care? You keep casting aspersions on people who have different priorities in a car to you. Why? Did some dude in a CTR gap you one night? Who cares? Diversity in the car world is good, it would be a boring world if everyone drove the same type of car! Drive your own ride and stop sweating it.



Not only do I think that is unfair, but given how many people think the twins are ‘posermobiles’ because they are ‘too slow to be real sportscars*’ you should perhaps be wary of throwing stones inside glass houses.

*To be clear, I don’t think this (obviously as an 86 owner) but a lot of enthusiasts and forum heroes do.

I gap twins all day in my CTR :P

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or if you wanted or need more power there are dozens of cars you could buy. Both arguments are equally foolish and narrow minded



The statements of it is too slow for daily driving are dumb. You just have to actually drive it not just sit back and push a pedal.

That’s just it though, I would think most of us chose one of the twins because of all the great things about them. I don’t want any of the more powerful options like a Mustang, Camaro, or 350Z. Those cars don’t have the handling magic and balance of the 86. They feel very different, and I can see why people love them, but it’s not for me. If you start to look at more expensive options like a Cayman, M2, RS3, or even the new Supra, well, they cost a lot more. And more than anything I’m a Toyota and Subaru fan, I want to support a car like the 86.

Asking for more power doesn’t mean we don’t love all of the other things about the car. Wringing them out is fun, no doubt. I want a motor in this car that doesn’t *always* require pegging the redline to move at a decent pace. The twins deserve a better engine, and hopefully the next gen will give us that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I gap twins all day in my CTR :P

Shame on you! You know how slow they are



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

That’s just it though, I would think most of us chose one of the twins because of all the great things about them. I don’t want any of the more powerful options like a Mustang, Camaro, or 350Z. Those cars don’t have the handling magic and balance of the 86. They feel very different, and I can see why people love them, but it’s not for me. If you start to look at more expensive options like a Cayman, M2, RS3, or even the new Supra, well, they cost a lot more. And more than anything I’m a Toyota and Subaru fan, I want to support a car like the 86.

Asking for more power doesn’t mean we don’t love all of the other things about the car. Wringing them out is fun, no doubt. I want a motor in this car that doesn’t *always* require pegging the redline to move at a decent pace. The twins deserve a better engine, and hopefully the next gen will give us that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My point was that saying if somebody is happy with the power they should just get an econobox sedan is just as foolish as saying that anybody that wants more power should get a Mustang not that they should not want more power.

I have managed to drive for 140,000 mikes without wringing it out to redline to keep up with traffic so not sure where people drive where they have to do it every trip.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

My point was that saying if somebody is happy with the power they should just get an econobox sedan is just as foolish as saying that anybody that wants more power should get a Mustang not that they should not want more power.



I have managed to drive for 140,000 mikes without wringing it out to redline to keep up with traffic so not sure where people drive where they have to do it every trip.

Ok I gotcha. And it’s obvious the twins drive better than any econobox. Horsepower and torque numbers don’t make a car better or worse if what’s around it sucks.

Well in my case I live in a very flat and open place with all sorts of trucks and SUVs flying around. My FR-S never feels slow, I can always get up to speed quickly. The FA20 never seems that happy about it though. IMO some more torque would make the twins even more fun to drive. I know the quest for more power is never ending, just look at all of the 400-600 HP cars out there, it’s mind boggling. I’m happy that Toyota doesn’t ever get caught up in those wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I have managed to drive for 140,000 mikes without wringing it out to redline to keep up with traffic so not sure where people drive where they have to do it every trip.

There is a spot near me where the right lane merges into the left lane (and ends in a steep curb set to launch oncoming vehicles into a telephone pole). I usually try to just get in the left lane early, and usually people are cool about letting traffic over anyway.

However, every now and then I get stuck in the right lane.

And every now and then there's a **** in the left lane who alternately hits the brake and gas to block people from getting over.

And sometimes there's even a second **** tailgating the first in the hopes that, through dedication and teamwork, they can run you into the pole.

It's situations like that when more power would be helpful. I almost made acquaintance with the pole when I couldn't outrun a brodozer intent on owning all of the left lane both ahead and behind.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

There is a spot near me where the right lane merges into the left lane (and ends in a steep curb set to launch oncoming vehicles into a telephone pole). I usually try to just get in the left lane early, and usually people are cool about letting traffic over anyway.

However, every now and then I get stuck in the right lane.

And every now and then there's a **** in the left lane who alternately hits the brake and gas to block people from getting over.

And sometimes there's even a second **** tailgating the first in the hopes that, through dedication and teamwork, they can run you into the pole.

It's situations like that when more power would be helpful. I almost made acquaintance with the pole when I couldn't outrun a brodozer intent on owning all of the left lane both ahead and behind.

Well in those conditions even the most powerful cars could be stuck.
Not sure how the 95% of the cars on the road that are slower and have even less power per weight manage to get around at all.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Shame on you! You know how slow they are



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's too easy. All the ricers come up to me with their stanced cars thinking they got a chance.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Well in those conditions even the most powerful cars could be stuck.
Not sure how the 95% of the cars on the road that are slower and have even less power per weight manage to get around at all.

We have a 134hp base mini countryman. It's does 0-60 in 9.3 seconds! Don't care. It's comfortable and quiet and is the vehicle we use for longer trips. It sips fuel too.
I've yet to be run off the road or stuck behind someone unable to pass