Contemplating FRS for track car

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

140F or 140C?

RE71R are well over 220F after 1 hot lap if driven hard.

140F, it can be driven beyond this but grip certainly falls off and at 220F, yeah tire will be done quickly I'm sure.

220F average temp is well beyond the capability of the majority of street tires. This is more within a pure race tire's capability. For example the BFG R1 has a peak optimal range of 220F per their tech sheet. The Hoosier R7 (tire care guide) is a bit below that but I'm sure it will still operate fine, but best to consult a tire engineer for details.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tony_r

140F, it can be driven beyond this but grip certainly falls off and at 220F, yeah tire will be done quickly I'm sure.

220F average temp is well beyond the capability of the majority of street tires. This is more within a pure race tire's capability. For example the BFG R1 has a peak optimal range of 220F per their tech sheet. The Hoosier R7 (tire care guide) is a bit below that but I'm sure it will still operate fine, but best to consult a tire engineer for details.

140F is super low!

The video posted previously is the second half of the first lap and the first half of the second lap. The audio and (lack of) over-yawing in the video indicates the clean nature of the driving involved, and the tire tread was between 195F and 235F when I pulled off after those two laps. The tire was already overheated and past its prime grip on that 2nd lap, but due to traffic in the first lap, there was no fast lap to be found, and no point in doing any more laps. The heat spread is not within an individual tire, but within different tires, due to the loading nature of buttonwillow.

What you're posting, is precisely why I am so against these "200TW street tires". They briefly offer the grip of an entry level slick, but have the heat tolerance and overheat-wear of a street tire.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Since it's bothering me, our RCE Yellow springs are 250 lbs/in, not 225.

Either way, you'll likely want to upgrade to a firmer system with new dampers for a track only car with "track" tires. Not a must do immediately, but eventually (and check the condition of the stock shocks).

Agreed on RE71R being a poor choice for anything other than trying to set 1 fast expensive lap.

- Andrew

[tony_r]

It's definitely not a tire designed with heavy track use in mind, nor TT focused cars. It just so happens to work with a lot of street cars. IIRC the compound is from a motorcycle tire originally.

Organizers and rules makers for most TT have recognized that the super 200 tires are one hit wonders and some have built exclusions and/or points penalties for them. Other tires, like the RS4, have been built with more track focus having higher operating ranges.

At the end of the day, for temp ranges like 220*+, there is literally no reason to use anything outside of a race tire. Some tires might work, but they're not designed with those temps in mind.

Edit: I honestly don't know of many tires that like to see an average temp range of 235*. That's very hot and might indicate the car is under-tired or that whatever tire used does not dissipate heat well (which a full race tire should do).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tony_r

It's definitely not a tire designed with heavy track use in mind, nor TT focused cars. It just so happens to work with a lot of street cars. IIRC the compound is from a motorcycle tire originally.

Organizers and rules makers for most TT have recognized that the super 200 tires are one hit wonders and some have built exclusions and/or points penalties for them. Other tires, like the RS4, have been built with more track focus having higher operating ranges.

At the end of the day, for temp ranges like 220*+, there is literally no reason to use anything outside of a race tire. Some tires might work, but they're not designed with those temps in mind.

Edit: I honestly don't know of many tires that like to see an average temp range of 235*. That's very hot and might indicate the car is under-tired or that whatever tire used does not dissipate heat well (which a full race tire should do).

Precisely what we were talking about!

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

What does everyone think of the deal on the FRS? It's a 2014 with 46k miles

From the OP:
Car comes with spare wheels and 2 spare sets of track wheels/tires, new clutch last month. Also has a door with a big ding and some hail damage (about $1700 to repair both). $10k-10.5k.

List of upgrades:
White line sways f/r 3 way adjustable
RCE springs 225# all around lowered car 20mm
Stock shocks
Rear white line subframe brace
White line top hats
Camber bolts
Perrin cat back exhaust 2.5
Motegi 17x7.5 wheels
Goodrich steel brake lines
Open flags tablet tuner
Uninstalled OFT headers with head gasket

Seems like a decent price. I have a '13 with almost 98k on it. Clean title, pretty much completely stock (just TRD wheels, oil cooler, and muffler delete), and in decent cosmetic shape. I'd recently posted it for sale, then changed my mind and decided to keep it, and had it listed at $12k. Reality is it's probably worth closer to $10k.

Part of what made me decide to keep it was the disheartening realization that it's worth only slightly more than a nice NB. haha The other part was how much I love driving this car. Chassis is great, reliability concerns are relatively low and easy enough to remedy (as others have pointed out), and consumables are cheap (though not quite NA/NB cheap).

Another bonus is the used parts market. Lots of kids buy these, throw a bunch of parts on for street cred/instagram likes, and then part out and sell when they inevitably can't afford it anymore, get bored and want something different, or crash it.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Seems like a decent price. I have a '13 with almost 98k on it. Clean title, pretty much completely stock (just TRD wheels, oil cooler, and muffler delete), and in decent cosmetic shape. I'd recently posted it for sale, then changed my mind and decided to keep it, and had it listed at $12k. Reality is it's probably worth closer to $10k.

Part of what made me decide to keep it was the disheartening realization that it's worth only slightly more than a nice NB. haha The other part was how much I love driving this car. Chassis is great, reliability concerns are relatively low and easy enough to remedy (as others have pointed out), and consumables are cheap (though not quite NA/NB cheap).

Another bonus is the used parts market. Lots of kids buy these, throw a bunch of parts on for street cred/instagram likes, and then part out and sell when they inevitably can't afford it anymore, get bored and want something different, or crash it.

I'm 80% sure I'm going to FRS. I kind of want a CLEAN project car anyway. Back in college and shortly after, I was always working on some old POS (didn't help I was in the rust belt either) and lost my interest in jacking with cars. I enjoy working on my grand sport
I'm kind of over breaking bolts, dealing with seized stuff and stripping crap on 20 year old cars in my garage. I'm probably going to drop $10-15k on this car in the next 1-2 years. Non particular order, built NA motor up (don't want the weight or the heat- same reason I have a GS vs a Z06), roll bar/cage, seats, gut it, aero, suspension, BBK.

How much power can these motors make with heads/cam?
Are there any Subaru motors that swap in? IE a bigger one?
Can the trans hold the extra power?
2300lbs and 275-300hp on coilovers would be one hell of a ride I bet (which is really what this car should have been from the factory, or at least an option for it).

[kch]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

How much power can these motors make with heads/cam?
Are there any Subaru motors that swap in? IE a bigger one?
Can the trans hold the extra power?
2300lbs and 275-300hp on coilovers would be one hell of a ride I bet (which is really what this car should have been from the factory, or at least an option for it).

1) Going for a built NA motor is going to be an exceptionally effective waste of your money. Cams/heads for the FA20 aren't like the LS world. The biggest and most cost-effective gains come from a catless header, E85, and tune. That will put you around 200-205whp. After that, it's a steep climb for diminishing returns. EDIT: the guy behind Money Shift Racing tried to do the ultimate NA build but gave up before finishing. I think the short block is still for sale. His build thread here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63901

2) Not easily.

3) Trans is okay for NA power levels. For anything more than, say, 250 lbft, you should have a spare trans on hand. There are options for building the trans or for trans swaps (like MazWorx CD009 swap) but they are expensive. Spares are much cheaper.

4) There's not a whole lot of easy weight to lose on these cars. You can get to 2300 lbs but it's tough. See Anthony's thread here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42284. You can get to 275-300whp with a JRSC, which is a rotrex SC unit that has extensive track testing behind it. Sure, it adds complications, but it's among the most reliable FI solutions for this platform.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

I'm 80% sure I'm going to FRS. I kind of want a CLEAN project car anyway. Back in college and shortly after, I was always working on some old POS (didn't help I was in the rust belt either) and lost my interest in jacking with cars. I enjoy working on my grand sport
I'm kind of over breaking bolts, dealing with seized stuff and stripping crap on 20 year old cars in my garage. I'm probably going to drop $10-15k on this car in the next 1-2 years. Non particular order, built NA motor up (don't want the weight or the heat- same reason I have a GS vs a Z06), roll bar/cage, seats, gut it, aero, suspension, BBK.

How much power can these motors make with heads/cam?
Are there any Subaru motors that swap in? IE a bigger one?
Can the trans hold the extra power?
2300lbs and 275-300hp on coilovers would be one hell of a ride I bet (which is really what this car should have been from the factory, or at least an option for it).

I moved from the Phoenix area to the rust belt 5 years ago, and this car has been my daily driver too for nearly all of that. It's help up to the Chicago winters quite well, a blast to ice race, and I've only had to deal with a few rusty bolts so far. But I am looking forward to moving to someone with less snow/salt in the next few years. haha

With those plans the car should be very enjoyable. However, building the motor NA is something very few people have done. Consensus seams to be that the return isn't quite worth it. Highly doubt you'd be able to see 275-300hp NA without investment levels that would completely negate the cost effective upsides of the car.

People have swapped other Subie motors (EJ), but I don't know enough to speak to the worthwhile-ness of that. However, it might say something to cost vs return that most people who swap go with an LS.

The trans will be fine for handling 275-300hp for the most part, though you may need to keep some spares on hand like kch suggests.

I think the easiest/cheapest/most reliable way for you to hit the numbers you're looking for would be forced induction with low comp pistons.

Though I'll disagree it should've come from the factory that way. Would've significantly increased the MSRP, pricing it out of the desired market, and changed the whole point behind the car. But that's a whole other topic, one which I've debated ad nauseum on various forums and auto news sites (I'm looking at you Jalopnik ) Feel free to PM me if you wanna debate it further. haha

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

I'm 80% sure I'm going to FRS. I kind of want a CLEAN project car anyway. Back in college and shortly after, I was always working on some old POS (didn't help I was in the rust belt either) and lost my interest in jacking with cars. I enjoy working on my grand sport
I'm kind of over breaking bolts, dealing with seized stuff and stripping crap on 20 year old cars in my garage. I'm probably going to drop $10-15k on this car in the next 1-2 years. Non particular order, built NA motor up (don't want the weight or the heat- same reason I have a GS vs a Z06), roll bar/cage, seats, gut it, aero, suspension, BBK.

How much power can these motors make with heads/cam?
Are there any Subaru motors that swap in? IE a bigger one?
Can the trans hold the extra power?
2300lbs and 275-300hp on coilovers would be one hell of a ride I bet (which is really what this car should have been from the factory, or at least an option for it).

You can gain ~25whp from cams/heads, but that would be an exceptionally terrible ROI; this would cost you more than going FI and every supporting mod you need to make the FI reliable.

You can swap in other Subaru motors, but again, the ROI is not worth it.

Sounds like a simple FI solution is what you're looking for!



Stock, Ace header + tune, Ace header + tune + ethanol.



Stock, vs GReddy turbo + tune.

[Sleepless]

+ 1 on going FI for power. The base kits like the one from Jackson has proven to be a great choice for track junkies. 270ish WHP is a good target in my experience. At that power level it is a very fast car in the right hands

[GrandSport]

What costs and gains are we talking about for heads/cam/stroker etc? I just dont want to strap 75lbs over the front end.

As far as weight, I was basing my estimates on that thread. I'd probably do it a little differently and end up 150lbs higher because I'd have at least a roll bar and no way I'm driving a car on the track without bumpers.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

I'm 80% sure I'm going to FRS. I kind of want a CLEAN project car anyway. Back in college and shortly after, I was always working on some old POS (didn't help I was in the rust belt either) and lost my interest in jacking with cars. I enjoy working on my grand sport
I'm kind of over breaking bolts, dealing with seized stuff and stripping crap on 20 year old cars in my garage. I'm probably going to drop $10-15k on this car in the next 1-2 years. Non particular order, built NA motor up (don't want the weight or the heat- same reason I have a GS vs a Z06), roll bar/cage, seats, gut it, aero, suspension, BBK.

How much power can these motors make with heads/cam?
Are there any Subaru motors that swap in? IE a bigger one?
Can the trans hold the extra power?
2300lbs and 275-300hp on coilovers would be one hell of a ride I bet (which is really what this car should have been from the factory, or at least an option for it).

The car is really easy to work on assuming you don't work on engine internals. Dropping the tranny is easy. Pulling the engine is easy (the tranny stays in place when pulling the engine). You can do the coils/plugs without pulling the engine but it's tight.

If you have to open the engine it becomes a pain in the ass to work on. Everything is sealed with RTV. A common problem on these cars (all years) is the timing cover leaks down by the oil pump. To fix it you have to pull the cover and clean all the old RTV off (I can't imagine doing this with it in the engine bay) and then reseal it. I saw someone else use RTV on the OUTSIDE of the cover and it's not leaked for a year so far. I'll probably go that route next time mine starts leaking.

[kch]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

What costs and gains are we talking about for heads/cam/stroker etc? I just dont want to strap 75lbs over the front end.

Hard to say, as I can't think of anyone who did those sorts of mods that wasn't also FI (except @celek).

The Piper cams (the only ones I can remember right now) are about $1300.

Full Blown offers a head package around $2500-3000.

Stroker kits are esspensive. The Toda 2.3 is around $5800. GReddy 2.1 $6k. The HKS 2.1 kit + cam is shown on their site to give 10hp and 9lbft. Not exactly huge gains.

Edit: also remember that working on heads and cams in an FA20 is WAY harder than in an LS.

Another edit: If you decide to go with an 86, I think the best options would be one of two choices for power:

1) Keep it simple, and get header/E85/tune. Focus on handling, suspension setup, and reliability.
2) Go one step further and get a centri SC kit like the JRSC. The weight gain can be offset by a lightweight battery and removing or emptying the washer fluid reservoir. JRSC + E85 can put you over 300whp.

Edit3: there are a few ITB kits coming up now, but they're also ~$3k with unknown gains.