follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-28-2023, 08:18 AM   #85
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 View Post
toyota's definitely been getting some flack lately for not jumping onto the battery bandwagon with everyone else--that was what that big reveal for 'look at us,, battery stuff!' thing was a little while ago. but it's very typical for the company to take the safe route with established tec and leave the teething development to other brands.
Flack from whom? Consumers don't really seem to mind, and that's who matters most.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2023, 09:20 AM   #86
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,798
Thanks: 38,786
Thanked 24,907 Times in 11,362 Posts
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Flack from whom? Consumers don't really seem to mind, and that's who matters most.
Maybe flack isn't the right word but eventually, assuming regulations and such stay in place, Toyota is going to be behind the industry on this though so not sure it's a long term strategic plan to not get on the train.
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2023, 11:48 AM   #87
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Waiting for better battery technology seems like a pretty sound strategy to me.

Let's be honest, do you see them giving up the sales crown any time soon? I don't.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2023, 12:08 PM   #88
bcj
Geo Tyrebighter Esq
 
bcj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: '13 scion fr-s
Location: pnw
Posts: 4,159
Thanks: 6,259
Thanked 4,948 Times in 2,182 Posts
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Leaving each MFG to spitball the entire battery build from dirt to sparks isn't helping the planet much.
So far.
Even getting a standard plug is worse than herding cats.
Laptop standards certainly haven't improved.
__________________
--
"I gotta rock." -- Charley Brown
bcj is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to bcj For This Useful Post:
Ultramaroon (03-28-2023)
Old 03-28-2023, 01:24 PM   #89
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
^pay no attention to the man in the corner, lol.

Anyway, MR2! Between this or a GR86 getting the G16 engine I give it 50/50.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to WolfpackS2k For This Useful Post:
bcj (03-28-2023)
Old 03-28-2023, 02:14 PM   #90
Sasquachulator
Pavement Grey
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2020 Toyota 86 GT, 2017 BMW X1
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,081
Thanks: 109
Thanked 2,220 Times in 1,203 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
Maybe flack isn't the right word but eventually, assuming regulations and such stay in place, Toyota is going to be behind the industry on this though so not sure it's a long term strategic plan to not get on the train.
I think they're playing the long game...with maybe a bit of a misstep with how fast EV's are taking off vs how fast they thought it would. And they have the Bz4X which for all intents and purpose is...fine for a second car. They also have some EV's sprinkled throughout the world in various markets that we dont really know of. They have a UX300e in parts of Europe, they have the BZ3 sedan in (Joint venture with BYD) and Toyoa Izoa EV (CHR) in china, and some other collab EV's like the a pro-ace EV. I suppose they should have a better product in the BZ Compact crossover thats coming up (who knows when)

Since a bunch of their models are getting redesigns in 2024/2025, im guessing in the 2030ish timeframe the next redesign or refreshes is when they'll make a bigger push with EV's. The EV landscape should be more saturated, and infrastructure shouldnt be much of an issue anymore, but i highly doubt it'll be the fantasy world thinking of the majority of road going cars are EV's. i could see 50% adoption rate not being a outside the realm of possibility though.

Besides by that time rolls around, even if they dont get the "first in line" EV buyers, they'll have the true EV platform, better electric tech and battery tech ready. plus like phones i dont think you'd want to be stuck with a last generation product being vastly inferior to the next generation product (until the point of diminishing returns is reached, then having a several generation old product wont feel so out of date).

Last edited by Sasquachulator; 03-29-2023 at 03:43 PM.
Sasquachulator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sasquachulator For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-28-2023), soundman98 (03-28-2023)
Old 03-28-2023, 10:09 PM   #91
soundman98
ProCrastinationConsultant
 
soundman98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: '14 Ranger, '18 Tacoma 4Dr LB
Location: chicago-ish
Posts: 11,326
Thanks: 35,214
Thanked 13,661 Times in 6,778 Posts
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Flack from whom? Consumers don't really seem to mind, and that's who matters most.
shareholders. toyota originally bet/pushed on hydrogen due to it being clean, but having similar refueling/range properties as gasoline, but the shareholders are restless, as every other company for a while was making announcements on how they were investing in BEV, but toyota wasn't until that big ev reveal in 2021

__________________
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time"
soundman98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2023, 08:44 AM   #92
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Yes, it's hard to keep sheep calm.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to WolfpackS2k For This Useful Post:
soundman98 (03-30-2023)
Old 03-29-2023, 01:04 PM   #93
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
The big difference for the future could be vertical integration versus a fractured approach; eg, like Apple vs Windows/Android. Both production methods might be fine, but Tesla could gain a market advantage in profit, or they could pass that on to consumers with a better value car. It will be hard for manufactures to play catchup if they aren't working on their own battery factories and instead rely on multiple different battery manufactures to build batteries for their products. We will see which strategy pans out.

Plug-in hybrids will probably be the big thing for the industry where the range is maybe 50 miles and a weak engine powers the battery directly. This means there is no need for a transmission/driveshaft/axles to directly power the wheels from the engine, but just an engine attached to a converter in any position making packaging simpler; the electric motor will power the wheels. While this is inherently less efficient and costs more emissions, the advantage is no range anxiety and having a smaller battery and lighter car than having to carry round a huge battery capable of 400 miles of range only to be using 50 miles a day in range.

Toyota is betting on hydrogen. They will do EVs too, but their long term strategy is hydrogen, and Japan is investing in red hydrogen (nuclear) production to deliver on that strategy.

Quote:
Tesla (TSLA) is now earning eight times more per car than Toyota, and they are starting to notice back in Japan...

For example, Tesla reported $3.29 billion in net profit last quarter compared to Toyota earning 434.2 billion yen (roughly $3.15 billion USD). That’s despite Toyota delivering almost eight times more cars than Tesla during the same time.1
The future is most likely to be mixed, yet EVs will be better for the vast majority of people, and I think hydrogen will be relegated to niche markets or be used for aviation. Motors and battery chemistry continues to improve making hydrogen seem less and less commercially necessary or advantageous.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2023, 04:18 PM   #94
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,798
Thanks: 38,786
Thanked 24,907 Times in 11,362 Posts
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Tesla (TSLA) is now earning eight times more per car than Toyota, and they are starting to notice back in Japan....
I'm still not 100% buying this figure. Does the source say that the listed profit is strictly from the sales of cars? Also, net profit is going to be after all costs (like R&D, wages, etc). Do I think Tesla is making money, yes. Do I really think all things being equal, when Tesla sells a $50,000 car and Toyota sells a $50,000 car, Tesla makes 8x the profit off that sale?

No.
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
Capt Spaulding (03-30-2023), Irace86.2.0 (03-29-2023), Lantanafrs2 (03-31-2023), MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires (03-30-2023), soundman98 (03-30-2023)
Old 03-29-2023, 07:25 PM   #95
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
I'm still not 100% buying this figure. Does the source say that the listed profit is strictly from the sales of cars? Also, net profit is going to be after all costs (like R&D, wages, etc). Do I think Tesla is making money, yes. Do I really think all things being equal, when Tesla sells a $50,000 car and Toyota sells a $50,000 car, Tesla makes 8x the profit off that sale?

No.
I think the answer to your question is provided in the quote, and I linked the source. They stated that Toyota sells 8x the cars, but recorded almost the same profit, ergo, Tesla is making 8x more profit per car. It is admittedly a loose calculation, but still compelling to anyone paying attention.

Revenue is going to be from car sales, warranty sales, replacement part sales, maybe service sales, etc (1), the majority of which is from their automotive segment over their energy segment. Much of this will overlap across manufactures or might be negligibly different. Tesla has the benefit of receiving subsidies to boost sales/price, and they have carbon tax credits to sell (2), which was about half of their profit. They sell direct without paying for advertising, so their costs are lower. They are vertically integrated, so there are less middle men to drive up the prices on their cars. For all of those reasons, they have matched the profit of Toyota with 8x less sales. Regardless of the how, I'm sure Toyota is probably considering how they can close the gap.

If the government was to end subsidies and carbon credits then the gap would significantly close on how profitable Tesla is compared to Toyota, yet Tesla's profit per car might also grow from advancement in other sectors like the fact that they are building a lithium refining factory (3) and plan to mine lithium from Nevada. With the cost of lithium likely to explode even more, this could be critical to their success. As they said in their investor meeting, part of their advantage (besides vertical integration) is that they are able to negotiate cheap and long term contracts with suppliers of parts and materials because Tesla has committed to an EV future. Other manufactures have still not taken the plunge. Some are starting to invest in battery manufacturing, but most are dependent on third party suppliers providing a product for their cars, which means they are subject to the improvements in battery chemistry or production from those third party manufactures (similar idea to why Apple departed with Intel for better vertical integration and less dependency on third party development and production timelines).

Tesla is continuing to innovate in car manufacturing, factory size/efficiency, material production, and so on. Everything is built on making the car cheaper and/or better from a first principles and material cost perspective. The gigafactories are turning into terafactories with a smaller footprint. The cars are built using giant castings in subsections that can have multiple robots/people performing tasks on the car at the same time to speed production and efficiency. They are aggressively working on reducing material cost and waste, and they are changing their cars so fast, it is hard to think of another manufacture being able to keep up. This all goes to money in their pocket and/or a price savings to the consumer.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-29-2023)
Old 03-29-2023, 08:52 PM   #96
Lantanafrs2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2013 frs red
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,517
Thanks: 2,520
Thanked 3,088 Times in 1,654 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Like anything else, evs will have to succeed on merit. Right now they're an alternative made more attractive by tax credits and woke dog whistling. 100k for an unproven electric truck with questionable range when actually used like a truck? Not there yet.
Lantanafrs2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Lantanafrs2 For This Useful Post:
soundman98 (03-30-2023)
Old 03-29-2023, 10:29 PM   #97
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 View Post
Like anything else, evs will have to succeed on merit. Right now they're an alternative made more attractive by tax credits and woke dog whistling. 100k for an unproven electric truck with questionable range when actually used like a truck? Not there yet.
That is one perspective. Another is that many things we think succeed on merit are entirely propped up by government (1), including ICEs via oil subsidies
(2), or exploitative/cheap labor (3) (4). Another perspective is that the government is investing into a future product and encouraging faster adoption because it is advantageous not to wait for adoption to occur over a longer timeline in a mature market. The S curve (5) for electric vehicle adoption is highly dependent on demand, but unlike the cellphone or the internet or the TV or radio before them, EVs aren't needed or significantly compelling to the average consumer yet, but in the interest of time, we don't really want to wait for EV adoption to occur naturally, as the effects of GHGs become ever more taxing to the average consumer, or when the rising price of non-renewable resources like oil pressure the market to evolve (6).

Also, what type of trucks are you referring to because it was unclear what you meant by unproven? Tesla Semis are in operation (6), and there is no mystery how EV trucks will work in terms of range and towing ability; the physics is laid out on the forces needed to tow, the rate of heat production by the batteries/cooling needed, and the range that they will have based on the load. The infrastructure for charging is the biggest obstacle, but for manufacturers, most will be setting up their own charging networks at their distribution and receiving centers. As it pertains to EV personal trucks, well, 75% of truck owners tow 0-1 times per year, and 70% go off-road 0-1 per year, and 35% use the truck bed 0-1 times per year (7), so most truck owners will be fine with an EV truck, but tests have been done (8). Ultimately, towing distance is far less important to most truck owners, who rarely tow and tow for short distances, when most truck owners use their truck like a car and mostly like the perception that the truck can tow, haul, go off-road and is safe and rugged, which can be marketing points for EVs just like ICEs (9).
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Capt Spaulding (03-30-2023)
Old 03-30-2023, 12:54 AM   #98
Lantanafrs2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2013 frs red
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,517
Thanks: 2,520
Thanked 3,088 Times in 1,654 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
That is one perspective. Another is that many things we think succeed on merit are entirely propped up by government (1), including ICEs via oil subsidies
(2), or exploitative/cheap labor (3) (4). Another perspective is that the government is investing into a future product and encouraging faster adoption because it is advantageous not to wait for adoption to occur over a longer timeline in a mature market. The S curve (5) for electric vehicle adoption is highly dependent on demand, but unlike the cellphone or the internet or the TV or radio before them, EVs aren't needed or significantly compelling to the average consumer yet, but in the interest of time, we don't really want to wait for EV adoption to occur naturally, as the effects of GHGs become ever more taxing to the average consumer, or when the rising price of non-renewable resources like oil pressure the market to evolve (6).

Also, what type of trucks are you referring to because it was unclear what you meant by unproven? Tesla Semis are in operation (6), and there is no mystery how EV trucks will work in terms of range and towing ability; the physics is laid out on the forces needed to tow, the rate of heat production by the batteries/cooling needed, and the range that they will have based on the load. The infrastructure for charging is the biggest obstacle, but for manufacturers, most will be setting up their own charging networks at their distribution and receiving centers. As it pertains to EV personal trucks, well, 75% of truck owners tow 0-1 times per year, and 70% go off-road 0-1 per year, and 35% use the truck bed 0-1 times per year (7), so most truck owners will be fine with an EV truck, but tests have been done (8). Ultimately, towing distance is far less important to most truck owners, who rarely tow and tow for short distances, when most truck owners use their truck like a car and mostly like the perception that the truck can tow, haul, go off-road and is safe and rugged, which can be marketing points for EVs just like ICEs (9).
I appreciate your response and respect your point of view. I have a different view of climate change and the religion being formed around it though.
Lantanafrs2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Lantanafrs2 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-30-2023), Irace86.2.0 (03-30-2023), WolfpackS2k (03-30-2023)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reading Tire Pressures Real Time via TPMS Sensors Bluesman62 Wheels | Tires | Spacers | Hub -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack 36 06-04-2022 09:11 PM
OBDII/iphone app combo for real-time monitoring? CaptainSlow Electronics | Audio | NAV | Infotainment 1 07-28-2014 07:29 PM
BeamNG - Real Time Vehicular Physics Simulation Engine mikeTee Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 2 08-07-2013 08:22 PM
86 (FR-S) vs BRZ real-time comparison on Tsukuba circuit attack by Nakaya yajin FR-S / BRZ vs.... 98 05-03-2012 08:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.