In for the long haul Ultimate NA build thread.

[200hp/tonne]

Originally Posted by celek

The current Cam profile stock falls flat at 7000 RPM.

What does that mean? I don't think it would lose power at high rpms, just leave room on the table for longer duration cams to do a better job. Plus, there's always phasing from the AVCS to help you out...

[celek]

Originally Posted by 200hp/tonne

What does that mean? I don't think it would lose power at high rpms, just leave room on the table for longer duration cams to do a better job. Plus, there's always phasing from the AVCS to help you out...

Yes the AVCS can help but if you look at the Dyno's people provide for our engine with the stock cams they start to flatten out at about 7k RPM. To support that higher RPM you need more lift and duration to bring enough air and fuel in.

https://www.google.com/search?q=brz+...zom40Gjy1oM%3A

[200hp/tonne]

It looks like the tune is severely gimped past 7000 rpm at full load. Crazy rich AFR, weird cam timings, retarded ignition, it's all there.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by 200hp/tonne

It looks like the tune is severely gimped past 7000 rpm at full load. Crazy rich AFR, weird cam timings, retarded ignition, it's all there.

He is talking about tuned results....

Lots of talented tuners have been working with this platform for a while now. The power is not locked away in the tuning (beyond 7500, NA). Yes there are some good gains up top with headers, E85, exhaust and tune but it drops off hard once you pass 7k with the stock heads and cams.

[celek]

Originally Posted by Snake

http://www.cosworth.com/products/cra...ratec-engines/

280bhp for the top of the range 2.3ltr

Looks like they run dry sump, ITBs, 13:1 compression and 8500rpm limit.

Really can not be used as a comparison though as a 2.4 liter Honda K series can make 400bhp easy on race gas

[Dr Speed]

Originally Posted by celek

Not to mention everything is exponential.
If all I did was increase displacement to 2.3 liters and left everything else stock you are looking at a 15% increase to a base 230 Crank HP All the other addons work with each other.

I think we are bench racing now.
Where do we see that 300cc = 30hp at the crank.


Honestly goodluck with the build tho OP. I think you will have fun but will have the same experience I had with an N/A Boxer build. See below


To give you all an idea of real world numbers from my experience doing a full N/A build on a boxer engine:

My 1999 Boxster for comparison (now sold):
-Flat 6 Innovations 2.5 to 2.9 Big Bore Kit
-R&R Pro Billet Steel Rods
-JE Pistons
- Heads ported and polished
-Schrick Camshaft
- Aasco lightweight flywheel
- TRS crankshaft pulley
- TRS exhaust with Manzo header

Stock dyno 163rwhp, after 212rwhp..... SAE not STD for all the cheats.
^^^ so this is where I am coming from with my comments on where I think power will be. Its not apples to apples this is a H6 (6cyl engine). I spent a fair bit and I can tell you I was let down on the dyno and it was a bitch to tune. I actually first put down numbers in the 180's and 190's and ran for a few months at just over 202rwhp before I found someone to really dial in the car.


So my build was similar I'd say and its a boxer engine. Similar displacement increase.... everything got me about 45-50hp and no joke my tune was on the ragged edge of lean to make the numbers that I did. So if we look at the fact that the FA is a 4 cyl, will be 2300cc's... I dunno but by my math I don't see it gaining more than 40-50rwhp from a full N/a build. Regardless of redline. Just because you rev an engine to 9,000rpm doesn't mean it makes more power that late in the rev range

[celek]

Originally Posted by Dr Speed

I think we are bench racing now.
Where do we see that 300cc = 30hp at the crank.


Honestly goodluck with the build tho OP. I think you will have fun but will have the same experience I had with an N/A Boxer build. See below


To give you all an idea of real world numbers from my experience doing a full N/A build on a boxer engine:

My 1999 Boxster for comparison (now sold):
-Flat 6 Innovations 2.5 to 2.9 Big Bore Kit
-R&R Pro Billet Steel Rods
-JE Pistons
- Heads ported and polished
-Schrick Camshaft
- Aasco lightweight flywheel
- TRS crankshaft pulley
- TRS exhaust with Manzo header

Stock dyno 163rwhp, after 212rwhp..... SAE not STD for all the cheats.
^^^ so this is where I am coming from with my comments on where I think power will be. Its not apples to apples this is a H6 (6cyl engine). I spent a fair bit and I can tell you I was let down on the dyno and it was a bitch to tune. I actually first put down numbers in the 180's and 190's and ran for a few months at just over 202rwhp before I found someone to really dial in the car.


So my build was similar I'd say and its a boxer engine. Similar displacement increase.... everything got me about 45-50hp and no joke my tune was on the ragged edge of lean to make the numbers that I did. So if we look at the fact that the FA is a 4 cyl, will be 2300cc's... I dunno but by my math I don't see it gaining more than 40-50rwhp from a full N/a build. Regardless of redline. Just because you rev an engine to 9,000rpm doesn't mean it makes more power that late in the rev range

I know where you are coming from. Although I do not know the Boxster engine very well it is similar in design. I had a somewhat equivalent experience with a junk yard build.
EJ22 with EJ25 crankshaft. Stock Rods Custom 11:1 pistons to compensate the longer stroke = 2.41ltr
Base EJ22: 135 bhp/Torque 137 lb·ft
After the engine build it made 148WHP and 158FtTQ (BUT all we did was adjust fuel AFR no timing adjustments)
So for 200cc's we saw a 30 Crank HP jump estimating a 12% drivetrain loss.
I think the Variable cam timing in the newer engine vs the older EJ may be able to dial in a bit more power.

I also had a friend with a Very high compression 14:1 EJ25 pull a corrected 308 HP in NA form. But he was on race gas an only used for AutoX

[Dr Speed]

I was going to reference some of the EJ25 builds that average about 210rwhp on full N/A builds, bored, oversized pistons, cams, ported heads, headers etc.


Engine/Power Modifications:
EJ251 bored over 100mm
Wiseco 12:1 pistons/rings
EJ257 crank/rods/oil pump
ACL RACE series bearings, std clearances.
EJ251 SOHC heads, ported by owner, stock valve sizes
Delta 3000 grind cams
EJ253 (AVLS) valve springs
06 2.5i intake manifold (big plenum/big runner)
70mm Ford throttlebody
440cc injectors
LinkPlus G1 standalone engine management
TWE prototype longtube header
2.5" aluminum non catted exhaust
2.5" DNA spiralflow muffler

^^^ All this got the owner 204 rwhp on a built 2.5L

[celek]

Originally Posted by Dr Speed

I was going to reference some of the EJ25 builds that average about 210rwhp on full N/A builds, bored, oversized pistons, cams, ported heads, headers etc.


Engine/Power Modifications:
EJ251 bored over 100mm
Wiseco 12:1 pistons/rings
EJ257 crank/rods/oil pump
ACL RACE series bearings, std clearances.
EJ251 SOHC heads, ported by owner, stock valve sizes
Delta 3000 grind cams
EJ253 (AVLS) valve springs
06 2.5i intake manifold (big plenum/big runner)
70mm Ford throttlebody
440cc injectors
LinkPlus G1 standalone engine management
TWE prototype longtube header
2.5" aluminum non catted exhaust
2.5" DNA spiralflow muffler

^^^ All this got the owner 204 rwhp on a built 2.5L

Similar build the one I know of had differences but again it was corrected estimated Crank.

[sato]

Old post: NA 2.5 RS breaking 300hp back in 2005...

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/t36040...300-na-hp.html

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[Slysdexia]

Not ITT: Area under the curve discussion.

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[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by sato

Old post: NA 2.5 RS breaking 300hp back in 2005...

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/t36040...300-na-hp.html

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Yet again people using silly crank horsepower estimates.

[sato]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Yet again people using silly crank horsepower estimates.

Well, link arrives at the 235 whp figures...so, yeah... 300hp

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[solidONE]

Any thought about necking down the intake ports for increased intake velocity? Or has that been discussed already?