Tires

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by N_Raged

The thing people are referring to is being able to throttle oversteer on command. Tires with less grip will require less throttle and less speed to break loose. Even if you're not doing mad drifts in the city, being able to rotate the car under throttle because of this is what makes driving a RWD car fun.

Tires with more grip have higher limits, therefore require more speed and throttle before they break free. This means you have to be more aggressive or going faster to achieve that oversteer or rotation, which is not always safe on public roads.

I have no disagreement with the Primacy HP as a factory tire on such a cheap car. They are appropriate for the car's power and as a daily driven car. I do kind of wish Subaru used the same Dunlop Sport Maxx RT as the WRX factory tire for that extra turn-in sharpness.

Exactly. The primacies lower the speed at which you can play around, which makes it so you can do it almost anywhere. With the sticky tires you can still slide around and have fun, but you can’t do it unless you have the room to go faster. For AutoX I prefer Hankook V12s or PSS (haven’t tried the PS4 yet). But for daily driving the primacy HP is sweet

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by JD001

Perhaps the 'American' Primacy is different from the UK version. I never felt confident with them, but then I was going from them to my Exige (A048r).. The UK Prius wears the same OEM rubber and I think that sums them up, great taxi tyres..

There are many tires under the primacy line, maybe you guys got a different one? Is it the Primacy HP?

Saying primacy is like saying pilot sport. Which one?

Primacy 3
Primacy 3 ZP
Primacy HP
Primacy MXM4
Primacy MXM4 ZP
Primacy MXV4
Primacy Tour A/S
Primacy Tour A/S ZP
Primacy A/S
Primacy A/S Selfseal

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by N_Raged

being able to rotate the car under throttle because of this is what makes driving a RWD car fun.

With the BRZ being my first RWD car, I understand what you're talking about, but does that require breaking traction? I.e. do you need to break traction to get the rear to rotate the car into the car? Or is it enough to apply power during the turn for that to happen?

Edit to add - when I test drove a manual Genesis G70 I would feel the rear rotating the car (not as much as in the BRZ, but it was definitely noticeable), and I think it wore PS4 (not S) tires. Not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

Originally Posted by N_Raged

I have no disagreement with the Primacy HP as a factory tire on such a cheap car.

The strange part is that buying these tires yourself is much more expensive than tires like PS4S or ECS - TireRack has the Primacys at about $250 while PS4S are for less than $200 and ECS for around $150. I'm sure Subaru and Toyota don't pay list price, but it's a pretty bizarre choice, nonetheless.

[gcmak]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

The strange part is that buying these tires yourself is much more expensive than tires like PS4S or ECS - TireRack has the Primacys at about $250 while PS4S are for less than $200 and ECS for around $150. I'm sure Subaru and Toyota don't pay list price, but it's a pretty bizarre choice, nonetheless.

Americas Tire seems to be a bit more reasonable on the price difference, but the Primacy HP is still a few bucks more expensive than the PS4S...it could be due to a lower volume tire...a 240 tread-wear touring tire is somewhat odd. I recognize tread-wear ratings are not standardized and can vary within a brand.

I haven't tried the PS4S on the BRZ yet, but on 2 other cars I had, once I switched to PS4S I consistently notice 4 things...

1. smaller road imperfections are soaked up better, 2. reduced road/tire noise and 3. immense grip in wet and hydroplane resistance, and 4. a slight reduction in turn-in sharpness/sidewall flexibility at the limits in some b-road and most track conditions (this is not a tire I like to run for an HPDE for this reason alone).

I might try the PS4S on the BRZ after doing a trackday with the stock tires, and I'd expect the same 4 things to stand out to me...but since this is a weekend/track-day car for me, I will likely go for stickier tires, foregoing daily comforts; like Hankook R-S4 or Bridgestone 71-R.

[N_Raged]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

but does that require breaking traction? I.e. do you need to break traction to get the rear to rotate the car into the car?

No you don't have to be doing massive slides to rotate the car on throttle. The rear limited slip differential sending power to the outside wheel definitely helps the car rotate. As you're approaching a turn, lift off the throttle or brake to transfer the weight to the front of the car - at this moment the front wheels have more grip than the rear. Assuming you're already in a low gear, now turn in sharply and smoothly give it throttle and you should hear the rear tires clawing away at the ground as car rotates into the turn - even with traction control on.

That instantaneous sensation of yaw at normal speeds is what makes this car fun. Chris Harris explains that sensation very well in this video:

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by N_Raged

Assuming you're already in a low gear, now turn in sharply and smoothly give it throttle and you should hear the rear tires clawing away at the ground as car rotates into the turn - even with traction control on.

So would stickier tires have an impact on this behavior? From what other folks said here in the thread, it sounded like sticker tires detract from the ability of the car to rotate like that.

Originally Posted by N_Raged

That instantaneous sensation of yaw at normal speeds is what makes this car fun. Chris Harris explains that sensation very well in this video

Yeah, I love that video - Chris does a great job at articulating the feeling of the car.

[N_Raged]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

So would stickier tires have an impact on this behavior? From what other folks said here in the thread, it sounded like sticker tires detract from the ability of the car to rotate like that.

Yes, it would require more effort. But what you lose in low speed playfulness, you gain in overall confidence in handling. There are plenty of Max Performance summer tires that have more grip than the Primacy HP yet still preserve the playfulness of the car.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by N_Raged

Yes, it would require more effort. But what you lose in low speed playfulness, you gain in overall confidence in handling. There are plenty of Max Performance summer tires that have more grip than the Primacy HP yet still preserve the playfulness of the car.

Hmm, this sounds pretty contradictory - if you lose low speed playfulness because it requires more effort to rotate with the rear wheels due to stickier tires, how would a tire offer both more grip and still preserve that playfulness? I'm really trying to understand this, since this is my first RWD sports car.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Hmm, this sounds pretty contradictory - if you lose low speed playfulness because it requires more effort to rotate with the rear wheels due to stickier tires, how would a tire offer both more grip and still preserve that playfulness? I'm really trying to understand this, since this is my first RWD sports car.

The playfulness isn’t gone, you just have to go 10 mph faster

[N_Raged]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The playfulness isn’t gone, you just have to go 10 mph faster

Exactly. Like I said earlier it just requires more effort whether it be more speed, or more revs, or more steering (ever heard of the Scandinavian flick? ).

@Ohio Enthusiast Don't sweat it. Just learn about weight transfer and get a lot of seat time to develop yourself as a driver and you'll find you can have fun one way or another with a wide range of different tires.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The playfulness isn’t gone, you just have to go 10 mph faster

yep. the philosophy is that by the time you wear through the oem tires, you understand the actions and methods at play that get the car to handle a certain way, and are ready to step up your game to being more serious.

it's a learning car, and that's what makes it different. it offers the unique opportunity that it's initially set up to teach the driver specific techniques at very low speeds. and as you progress a a driver, simple modifications like better tires can be made that make the car better than it came, but improved you as a driver firstly, so you know and understand how to get even more out of each set of improvements.

[Ernest72]

My summer tires are Michelin PS4. My winter tires are BFG comp 2 A/S. The grip in the summer is great and you need more speed to get the back out. The grip in the winter is pretty good, and you get that slide in the back, which is fun.

Personally, I think I could go year round on a decent A/S tire, without much complaint, because I just DD and spirited mountain runs. If you autox or track you need good summers or track tires and push that car to the limits.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

There are many tires under the primacy line, maybe you guys got a different one? Is it the Primacy HP?

Saying primacy is like saying pilot sport. Which one?

Primacy 3
Primacy 3 ZP
Primacy HP
Primacy MXM4
Primacy MXM4 ZP
Primacy MXV4
Primacy Tour A/S
Primacy Tour A/S ZP
Primacy A/S
Primacy A/S Selfseal

I have the HPs.. plenty of tread left but the rubber is aging.. lots of cracks...

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by JD001

I have the HPs.. plenty of tread left but the rubber is aging.. lots of cracks...

Same here, I’m on 2014 primacy HPs and they’re great still. But I never drive below 60F/16C.