Steering? 2nd gen BRZ GR86 vs. 1st gen?

[DarkSunrise]

Over the weekend I compared my 22 BRZ against my 1st gen E85 FR-S on some familiar back roads.

The 2nd gen steering is lighter, has a tiny bit less feedback overall, but is also more consistent under heavy loads. The only time I noticed significantly less feedback through the wheel on the 2nd gen was this one corner where there's a dip before a turn. The steering on the 1st gen typically loads up heavily in those situations (and with sticky tires on the track will actually cause the EPS to cut out) whereas this 2nd gen doesn't load up like that. The same thing will happen on any uphill turn.

Other than that, if you can get past the lightness, the actual feedback through the wheel is very close. Both gens have good feedback compared to most other EPS units. If you've ever driven an S2000, both gens have a lot more feedback compared to that.

Rest of my write-up is here, if anyone is interested.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...0&postcount=32

[Samba86]

Thanks for chiming in DS - you’ve eloquently summed up exactly what I was feeling when comparing them back to back.

[PBR]

Yes. I've driven a 355. Heavy. Especially the Spyder. Light, quick ratio steering, full of feel. And that V8. BUT, did you see the E30 M3? That's the better sports car and what i was talkkng about. Not even kidding lol. I'd take an E30 M3 over a 355 any day, all day. And still prefer my '22 BRZ lol. Structural integrity has come a long, long way.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Savagegeese posted a 5000 miles update of their GR86 and talked about the steering. They were burned with their original FRS so I doubt they have any bias towards the first gen. They do mention perhaps increasing caster for a heavier feel, but acknowledge that that probably won't change the feel by itself.

Link (at 14:11 minutes):

[Petah78]

I have to admit, to this day, I still don't quite get what is "steering feel". I have hooned decently hard on the street and tracked all of the fun cars I have owned and can't conclude on this even after purposely looking for it. What I noticed is weight, speed and accuracy between all the different makes/models.

[PBR]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Savagegeese posted a 5000 miles update of their GR86 and talked about the steering. They were burned with their original FRS so I doubt they have any bias towards the first gen. They do mention perhaps increasing caster for a heavier feel, but acknowledge that that probably won't change the feel by itself.

Link (at 14:11 minutes):

Good stuff. I'm actually adding Raceseng camber plates specifically so I can change the castor. My car is still in the shop but once on I can report back on any increase in weight. Still in the camp of "lighter with more feel", though lol. But i do respect these two guys very much.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Petah78

I have to admit, to this day, I still don't quite get what is "steering feel".

In my understanding (and I might be wrong, as I'm a fairly new driver and never drove old school manual everything full of feel cars) steering feel is basically two things:

1. Changing weight of the steering with changing grip level. Heavier with more load and more weight on the tires (thus more grip), and lighter when reaching the limit (i.e. understeer). This helps the driver gauge how much faster they can go as well as giving indication that you are at the limit
2. Road surface changes moving the steering wheel in your hands. Think bumps and camber changes. Also, the wheel spinning rapidly in the direction of a slide when oversteering. This gives feedback to road conditions, some of them are not apparent visually

You can get a feeling for numb steering in most econoboxes while taking a curve fairly quickly (7/10 is enough, no need to push to the limit) - the steering will feel exactly the same between turn in, apex and turn out. Also, think of how the steering feels when driving over compacted snow (as an example of when feel is lost).

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by PBR

Still in the camp of "lighter with more feel", though lol. But i do respect these two guys very much.

Are you sure it’s not second gen confirmation bias?

[PBR]

I "prefer" it. Haven't we already been over this? And how hard are you guys driving your cars? Shouldn't say this but my PS4s were gone at 7k miles. With a rotation lol. And it's not like I haven't owned, raced and tested a bunch of dedicated and non dedicated stuff. Like even GT3 racecars��

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by PBR

I "prefer" it. Haven't we already been over this?

It was meant to be a light hearted wind up after Savage Geese had a similar view to us all. Hence the wink at the end. All good.

Originally Posted by PBR

And how hard are you guys driving your cars? Shouldn't say this but my PS4s were gone at 7k miles. With a rotation lol. And it's not like I haven't owned, raced and tested a bunch of stuff ��

Yeah probably too hard, I have Pilot Super Sports on mine and the edge of the tread is definitely more worn.

[PBR]

Lol. Good stuff. And same. My smart ass is always delivered with a smile... ��

[rennlistuser3]

[QUOTE=PBR;3531171
Anyways, it's a simplified system with less damped out. Problem with EPS. The lack of rigidity, in gen 1 added more weight to make it seen more stiff but there is less "feel." In a Gen 1 despite being "heavier " promise[/QUOTE]


This is an interesting point of view... I wish I had both gens parked outside for me to test back to back and see for myself..


on a side note, it is utterly amazing to hear someone who had an Evora give prospective on the FT86. The Evora has always been among my top dream cars but I never got to owning one.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

You really need to test drive it back to back with your first gen car. For me the steering feel was the biggest let down on the new gen, others on here have a similar view to me and then there are others that prefer it or don’t think it is a big deal. Both are still great cars and I would still own either one.

Here is my detailed comparison, if you’re interested, the overall thread isn’t bad either.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=638

Another good comparison on the same thread.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=653

Thanks a lot. One of the most informative posts I've read and most likely would be inline with what I would experience if I actually got a test drive myself.



I'll just add one thing, which I don't mean to negate anything you've said just food for thought, when you test out a car, it takes a good bit to understand it and learn how to read it better.



It personally took me about 2 months to understand how amazing the FT86 chassis really is. Some thing you can realize immediately like how heavy a car is and so on. Maybe a different steering sensation might take a bit to understand better?



But anyway as I said before, I am most likely to agree with you on your assessment if it were me doing the test. Just from what I'm reading online from various sources.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by PBR

I sincerely believe gen 1 owners are trying to confirm their bias. They probably think I am also but I do, absolutely, find gen 2 to have the better steering feel and I've owned both. And I sincerely believe many can't tell "feel" from "weight" 100%. And unless you get a drunk salesman? Which is possible (ran an internet New car sales dept) how are you really going to know?

but isn't weight itself feedback on its own?



I mean cars with no power steering are touted having superior feedback yet they can be really heavy for it.



I know some manufacturers just artificially include a heavy steering wheel just make you believe you are having more feedback but I never felt the 1st gen FT86 was among them. The heaviness to me is real feedback.