Insurance for Modified Vehicles in Ontario?

[VOSS]

I've seen a couple threads posted in the past regarding this but there wasn't really a definitive answer. Anyone here have vehicle insurance for their modified car in Ontario?

I DD my car so Hagerty is not an option. I know some people opt to not mention anything to their insurance company but the cons of doing that heavily outweigh the positives to me.

I signed up with Belair because they said they're ok with mods up to 5k. The moment i tell them i want to do coilovers or exhaust, they nope out saying its a "performance" enhancement.

So what does everyone have?

[wparsons]

Your best bet is dealing with a broker, not straight to a company.

[Skurj]

Coseco happily accepted my upgrading my suspension and going to 9" wheels... (coilovers + 17x9 rpf1's) I told em I would be spending less and 5k...

[KurtZehrINS]

Hey,


As stated above I think the best option is dealing with a broker. I am not saying this just because I am one, but as a broker we have access to a number of different providers, which gives us a lot more options.


In terms of modifications though, things are still very difficult. Every company has their own definition of what is considered an excluded modification, and it is just a matter for finding one that will accept it.


In my personal opinion some aftermarket springs and upgraded exhaust is nothing off the wall, but not every company sees it this way.


Now, not to highjack you post, but this would save the forum another similar post. As mentioned I am a broker and I work for Zehr Insurance, and I am working on a project to create a specialty insurance product for modified vehicles.

I know that finding proper and affordable insurance for modified vehicles can be very difficult/impossible. I know many people lie to their brokers about the modification, or are forced to insure with Facility to get proper insurance. Both have big downsides. Lying can lead to denied claims and all sorts of other headaches that no one wants and to fully insure with Facility costs an arm and a leg along with your first born child. My goal here is to create the specialty program that will provide affordable rates and allow you to disclose all of your modifications.

My brokerage specializes in Classic Car insurance, where it is not difficult to insure modified vehicles. Take on old Impala and put a Cummins diesel in it and I would have no problem. Same Impala but with a full custom paint job, again no issue. Even roll cages are doable. But you do an engine swap or any of the above in your Subaru/Scion and insurance is impossible to find.


This is doesn't makes any sense to me. If you have put the time, money and care into you car then you are going to take of it just as well as any "classic" car owner.

I am hoping to compile a database that can help me approach my insurance providers to create this specialty program for enthusiasts like yourselves. If you are willing I have provided a link below to a 10 question survey, which will help give me an overview of the potential market, and give me ammo to get this program started. The survey should only take 1 minute.

I would be so appreciative if everyone could fill out the survey and pass it along to anyone who may be willing to help me out. Thank you very much for the time and consideration. If you have any questions or input in terms of desired coverage etc, I would appreciate all feed back.


https://www.surveymonkey.ca/r/QNVVMWY

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by KurtZehrINS

Hey,


As stated above I think the best option is dealing with a broker. I am not saying this just because I am one, but as a broker we have access to a number of different providers, which gives us a lot more options.


In terms of modifications though, things are still very difficult. Every company has their own definition of what is considered an excluded modification, and it is just a matter for finding one that will accept it.


In my personal opinion some aftermarket springs and upgraded exhaust is nothing off the wall, but not every company sees it this way.


Now, not to highjack you post, but this would save the forum another similar post. As mentioned I am a broker and I work for Zehr Insurance, and I am working on a project to create a specialty insurance product for modified vehicles.

I know that finding proper and affordable insurance for modified vehicles can be very difficult/impossible. I know many people lie to their brokers about the modification, or are forced to insure with Facility to get proper insurance. Both have big downsides. Lying can lead to denied claims and all sorts of other headaches that no one wants and to fully insure with Facility costs an arm and a leg along with your first born child. My goal here is to create the specialty program that will provide affordable rates and allow you to disclose all of your modifications.

My brokerage specializes in Classic Car insurance, where it is not difficult to insure modified vehicles. Take on old Impala and put a Cummins diesel in it and I would have no problem. Same Impala but with a full custom paint job, again no issue. Even roll cages are doable. But you do an engine swap or any of the above in your Subaru/Scion and insurance is impossible to find.


This is doesn't makes any sense to me. If you have put the time, money and care into you car then you are going to take of it just as well as any "classic" car owner.

I am hoping to compile a database that can help me approach my insurance providers to create this specialty program for enthusiasts like yourselves. If you are willing I have provided a link below to a 10 question survey, which will help give me an overview of the potential market, and give me ammo to get this program started. The survey should only take 1 minute.

I would be so appreciative if everyone could fill out the survey and pass it along to anyone who may be willing to help me out. Thank you very much for the time and consideration. If you have any questions or input in terms of desired coverage etc, I would appreciate all feed back.


https://www.surveymonkey.ca/r/QNVVMWY

bruh wtf. I scroll to the bottom and see survey?

[bcj]

Is it a Fakeboeok survey?
If someone can get this off the ground, may be felicitous.
The survey doesn't seem too noxious.

Could be good for any ex/detroit marque.

[KurtZehrINS]

I know my post was random and the survey is pretty low budget, but my post is legit.

It may not look like much but the survey will provide me the information to get this idea off the ground. The survey is completely anonymous. I'm not trying to get you in trouble with your current insurance or anything like that.

But I need proof and facts to show that this is feasible. Things like size of the potential market. Insurance history etc.

This may not be an immediate solution but I am working on the long term goal of finding a place to insure modified cars in Ontario.

If anyone is willing I would appreciate all the help. Plus it will help the OP know he can get insurance for his car!

[Lynxis]

Looked at the survey and it's Survey Monkey and doesn't collect anything identifying about you so nothing to worry about there. I filled it out.

The major reason getting modified street cars insured in Ontario is such a problem is due to the no-fault insurance laws here. Getting classic cars or hotrods insured is easier for the insurers because they are never daily drivers so the chances of them being involved in a collision is extremely slim in the first place. Also, this type of insurance always has a laundry list of stipulations associated with it, IE: must be stored in a closed and locked garage when not in use, and can only put on very limited numbers of miles and ive even seen some stipulations that the vehicle is only allowed to be driven to and from car shows.

Anyways, the issues are mostly with getting daily drivers insured in a no-fault insurance environment because your insurer is the only one you deal with so they take on 100% of the risk. In places without no-fault, the only insurance company involved is the at fault party so if you get into a collision that is someone elses fault, then you chase the at fault parties insurance to get paid so your own insurer doesn't assume any of the risk in this scenario so they care a lot less about what your car is like. With no-fault insurance, you only deal with your own insurer which means they may be on the hook for paying for your modifications. While this isn't such a problem for a guy with a few thousand dollars put into his car, it's a different story when you are dealing with the guy who put 20k into his car. Obviously, they don't want to be on the hook for anything more than they have to be and because they are in control of the situation, they will just refuse to take on the associated risk. Also, there is no guarantee that the parts you put on your car are quality or that they were installed correctly. If you put on an inferior product or whatever and if it fails and causes a collision, well your insurance providers don't want to be on the hook for that either.

I think this could be resolved by doing regular inspections to ensure modified vehicles are safe for the road and set a claimed value but none of the insurance companies want to be bothered just to cater to a minority of drivers on the road who want to modify their vehicles.

Edit: Thinking about this a bit more, "collision" coverage is optional so the first point about the insurance company paying out for the cost of your modifications is basically irrelevant.. they could easily say "ok, modified vehicle means no collision coverage" but the second point still stands and I think is a larger part of the reason they don't want to cover modified street vehicles.

[KurtZehrINS]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Looked at the survey and it's Survey Monkey and doesn't collect anything identifying about you so nothing to worry about there. I filled it out.

The major reason getting modified street cars insured in Ontario is such a problem is due to the no-fault insurance laws here. Getting classic cars or hotrods insured is easier for the insurers because they are never daily drivers so the chances of them being involved in a collision is extremely slim in the first place. Also, this type of insurance always has a laundry list of stipulations associated with it, IE: must be stored in a closed and locked garage when not in use, and can only put on very limited numbers of miles and ive even seen some stipulations that the vehicle is only allowed to be driven to and from car shows.

Anyways, the issues are mostly with getting daily drivers insured in a no-fault insurance environment because your insurer is the only one you deal with so they take on 100% of the risk. In places without no-fault, the only insurance company involved is the at fault party so if you get into a collision that is someone elses fault, then you chase the at fault parties insurance to get paid so your own insurer doesn't assume any of the risk in this scenario so they care a lot less about what your car is like. With no-fault insurance, you only deal with your own insurer which means they may be on the hook for paying for your modifications. While this isn't such a problem for a guy with a few thousand dollars put into his car, it's a different story when you are dealing with the guy who put 20k into his car. Obviously, they don't want to be on the hook for anything more than they have to be and because they are in control of the situation, they will just refuse to take on the associated risk. Also, there is no guarantee that the parts you put on your car are quality or that they were installed correctly. If you put on an inferior product or whatever and if it fails and causes a collision, well your insurance providers don't want to be on the hook for that either.

I think this could be resolved by doing regular inspections to ensure modified vehicles are safe for the road and set a claimed value but none of the insurance companies want to be bothered just to cater to a minority of drivers on the road who want to modify their vehicles.

Edit: Thinking about this a bit more, "collision" coverage is optional so the first point about the insurance company paying out for the cost of your modifications is basically irrelevant.. they could easily say "ok, modified vehicle means no collision coverage" but the second point still stands and I think is a larger part of the reason they don't want to cover modified street vehicles.

Much of the above is very true. The description of No-fault insurance is correct. No-Fault does not mean that you cannot be held as the responsible part in an accident, it is that you don't have to worry about going after a potential 3rd parties insurance to get coverage for yourself or the vehicle.


It is supposed to make claims scenarios easier for the clients. You get into an accident, you just go to your own insurance company and they take care of you.


Insurance is all about the historical data. It is the reason young males pay higher premiums. I am not saying that we are worse drivers or that ladies are never in incidents, but I do think that historically, when males get into an accident it tends to not just be a fender bender.


The problem with modified cars isn't always just for coverage for the vehicle itself, it is the chance of injury to yourself, or maybe you are showing off and injure someone else etc.


What I feel, and what I hope my survey results show, is that modified car owners are not littered with tickets and accident and the old mentality of hooligan street racers is not the case for the majority of car owners.


Again the argument for classic car insurance above is also fairly accurate. the reason the program works is the mentality that the vehicles are not driven every day and are a seasonal use vehicle. Again we specialize in Classic Cars so I deal with this a lot.


The use for a classic is to be hobby(Car Shows, Poker Runs, Cruise Nights, etc) and limited pleasure use(Drives on nice nights and what have you. Now if on your drive you stop for ice cream or dinner, this is fine). The vehicle is not to be driven to work, or for things that you should be using your regular vehicle for(running errands, leaving the vehicle unattended while you get groceries or shopping,etc.). However, as long as you are using the vehicle for the above purpose our program does not have a km restriction. Meaning that you want to take you drive your custom hot rod to SEMA one year. Go for it.


But again to be able to insure a $10,000 appraised value vehicle for only $89/year, I think the stipulations to use can be justified on both sides. The only reason the classic car program is successful is because there are very, very few claims.


The idea of my survey is to figure out how most people use their modded cars, which will allow me to go to my companies and develop a rating system that is fair and accurately generates a premium to cover the risk.


Currently my responses have led me to find, that most use their cars for Daily purposes. With this my current idea is to provide a discounted base rate for the insurance, and then add small surcharged based on a tiered value for total $ amount for mods to the vehicle. So your FRS say would be settled on just as normal, based on current market value etc. Then the mods would be settled on replacement cost, based on provable receipts. This way you get fair value for the car, plus proper compensation for your added mods. Again I am just in the very beginning stages of this, so there is no finality to this.


Who knows, maybe this will never get off the ground and I will be turned down everywhere. I am not trying to give false hope. This is a project I have been wanting to do for a number of years, and this year I am going at it full tilt. I do not know what the outcome will be, but I feel that modified car owners deserve the attempt.


I appreciate all who have filled the survey so far.


Cheers,

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by KurtZehrINS

Who knows, maybe this will never get off the ground and I will be turned down everywhere. I am not trying to give false hope. This is a project I have been wanting to do for a number of years, and this year I am going at it full tilt. I do not know what the outcome will be, but I feel that modified car owners deserve the attempt.

I appreciate that someone is attempting to create an affordable solution for those of us who want to daily drive our modified street cars legally. Please keep us appraised of how this goes.

If you haven't already, I also suggest checking other active car forums for responses. Honda, Subaru, GM, Ford and Mazda all have cars with really active aftermarkets so I recommend checking forums specific to those manufacturers and models for responses and interest as well.

[KurtZehrINS]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

I appreciate that someone is attempting to create an affordable solution for those of us who want to daily drive our modified street cars legally. Please keep us appraised of how this goes.

If you haven't already, I also suggest checking other active car forums for responses. Honda, Subaru, GM, Ford and Mazda all have cars with really active aftermarkets so I recommend checking forums specific to those manufacturers and models for responses and interest as well.

Thank you for the suggestions. So far I have hit you guys, Toronto Subaru Club, CASC, Toronto Mazda3. I have been posting as often as possible between other work duties and dad/husband duties at home.


I will do my best to continue to work through the other car manufacturers. If you have links to the best forum options I would so appreciate the assistance!


Cheers.

[Canehda]

Most companies are smart enough to have FSCO filing to not insure modifications, the large companies all have it... as per one of your statements comparing swapping a Cummins into an impala vs swapping a motor into an FRS, an underwriter won’t look at the modification on its own but rather the person who would do this modification. The demographic that swaps the former is different from the latter. Just like big brake kits, the BBK objectively make the car safer but the underwriter will ask why does this person need a big brake kit? At the end of the day there simply isn’t enough data to take the risk and most companies won’t do it even if there is a market. From my experience the only way I’ve ever seen modified cars get on policies is when they are snuck in with large commercial policies.
But I before you all send the mob after me, exterior asthetic mods and mods unrelated to performance a lot of companies are okay with. Over the winter I helped the auto adjusters who were getting smoked with claims and I actually replaced a guys voltex type 2 wing and velox diffuser... insurance is a good faith industry and I can tell you that a lot of stuff gets by... just don’t be that guy who gets your broker to escalate that the adjuster didn’t pay for a Cobb Accessport in your 997 turbo when you said no modifications on your Ontario Application Form because you would be the reason why insurance companies start hating mods...

[wparsons]

To me, I don't really care if the value of the mods are covered... it's all about not having coverage dropped at the time of a claim because of a mod.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by wparsons

To me, I don't really care if the value of the mods are covered... it's all about not having coverage dropped at the time of a claim because of a mod.

This really seems to depend upon the company and type of policy that each individual has.
When I first bought the car and thought it needed FI based on what I had read (I had only done the one test drive at that point) I contacted my insurance company and had a long discussion on coverage. They were very clear that they did not care what I did to the car it would not change the base coverage. The guy even said "doesn't matter if you drop a V8 in there the base coverage doesn't change". He said that the cost of coverage was based far more on the driver than what was done to the car. There was zero risk (according to him at that point in time) of the car not being covered due to any performance mods that were done. He did say that any high level performance mods should be reported though but it was more so that the insurance company had them on record.

Now... the clincher was that the base premiums only covered the value of the car in it's stock state. If I sank $10K into mods and wrecked it I would be out that $10K. He said that if I wanted to cover any modification costs then they could just tack a rider onto my policy. I don't recall the exact amount but it was actually pretty cheap. Something like $20 a year for every extra $5K in value.


The whole thing is to check what your contract says. If it outright bans any form of performance mods then you could be out of luck. If it has restrictions but permits some or does not reference them at all (as mine reads) then all is fine.