Cooling Dilemmas

[czellers]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

For starters, please learn to quote effectively.

You can read, right? Follow the thread conversation. Mike and I were discussing the merits of airflow and cooler setups, and I brought up rally cars to illustrate how they did fine with relatively little, comparably speaking, airflow, yet they are high-horsepower, extreme, race vehicles, which suggests people are overplaying the significance of cooler placement for a street car.

Follow my questions and points on post #8 and #24. What are you plans for the car? I agree that you can do anything, but your original post, and unless I missed it, nothing since that original post has stated your goals for the car. Someone could have answered your question by suggesting that you build a custom bumper with a V-mount radiator/intercooler/oil cooler setup with air flow dams that channel air to the coolers and dump the air up like the setup below and to use the two sides for brake ducting, but the best setup may not be a financially reasonable setup, nor may it be necessary if your goals are for a 300hp turbo setup that is just for street use (hypothetically). If you want sound advice then it would help if you made it clear what your plans are for the car. What are you horsepower goals and driving demands because that will dictate cooling needs?

"Learn to quote"
Sincerely,
Overcooling Internet Guy

1. I hat to remove about 7 links and 5 pictures just to quote you, and on a 'modestly' hosted forum, its reliable at best.

I'm bored, so I'll bite.. Rally.... you're whole argument hinges on the viscosity and subsequent surface tension of a water and aggregate mix. NO ONE CARES.

GOAL for the car, as originally stated, and several times since, but here goes again my friend. I have time, money, and a willingness to do this right, at least on a fundamental level. Ok, so what does that mean!? Well, quite simply I don't want 5 layers of heat exchangers of shit in my front bumper because "it's easier/good enough" that way. So, what? I want to take a careful and considered approach and I'm willing to learn and do it right. That's "the point" of the OP.


The "goal" is an efficient way to cool oil and air. Heat soak is easy with a louvered/vented hood.

Let me make this really simple for you so we all don't have to endure 600 more messages.. early intercooler sizing (surface area) is important right? Same thing for an oil cooler, no? Radiator?

So, the thread is an engineering centric heat exchanger location open discussion. I'll boil it down to just the intercooler for the sake of brevity and complexity (for you). We buy/spec intercoolers based on size.. then WHY BUY ONE, THEN COVER HALF OF IT UP WITH SOMETING ELSE DESIGNED TO DO THE SAME THING.? If the discourse of this thread still escapes you, just don't respond..

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by czellers

"Learn to quote"
Sincerely,
Overcooling Internet Guy

1. I hat to remove about 7 links and 5 pictures just to quote you, and on a 'modestly' hosted forum, its reliable at best.

I'm bored, so I'll bite.. Rally.... you're whole argument hinges on the viscosity and subsequent surface tension of a water and aggregate mix. NO ONE CARES.

GOAL for the car, as originally stated, and several times since, but here goes again my friend. I have time, money, and a willingness to do this right, at least on a fundamental level. Ok, so what does that mean!? Well, quite simply I don't want 5 layers of heat exchangers of shit in my front bumper because "it's easier/good enough" that way. So, what? I want to take a careful and considered approach and I'm willing to learn and do it right. That's "the point" of the OP.


The "goal" is an efficient way to cool oil and air. Heat soak is easy with a louvered/vented hood.

Let me make this really simple for you so we all don't have to endure 600 more messages.. early intercooler sizing (surface area) is important right? Same thing for an oil cooler, no? Radiator?

So, the thread is an engineering centric heat exchanger location open discussion. I'll boil it down to just the intercooler for the sake of brevity and complexity (for you). We buy/spec intercoolers based on size.. then WHY BUY ONE, THEN COVER HALF OF IT UP WITH SOMETING ELSE DESIGNED TO DO THE SAME THING.? If the discourse of this thread still escapes you, just don't respond..

You still didn’t answer the question: what are your horsepower goals and what are you going to use it for? Depending on your goals, that will dictate the cooling needs. Your concerns are not concerns if your goals are a boosted daily driver at moderate horsepower, so the solutions in this thread will potentially be overkill. If you have deep pockets and want overkill then why are you asking an internet forum for advice? Go call up Twins Turbo, and ask those guys to make a custom V-mount setup or any other shop with expertise. Put the largest and heaviest setup you can in the available space. Have them build you a custom bumper. I don’t really see what there is to debate or discuss if you don’t want tailored answers. In general, there is a huge resource of images of race car setups for 500+hp cars like I posted for the Supra video. There are plenty of OEM setups you can pull from too. There isn’t much to discuss if you buy into the idea that the more is the merrier, so what are you expecting to gain or learn from this thread without being specific about what you want to achieve? If you care to optimize or make the setup the most efficient it can be then at minimum someone would need to know your goals, constraints, budget, turbo placement/setup, etc. Call a shop up with less and see if you get a better answer than “it depends”.

[Irace86.2.0]

I guess I’ll add that I have a Harrop kit with E85 at a bar of boost somewhere around the 350whp with only the Forester XT oil cooler/regulator. The car is aggressively street driven and canyon driven. I have no external oil cooler, so nothing is blocking my intercooler. Coolant temps are never an issue and my oil temps max around 220-230 in the canyons. I don’t see runaway heat soak or skyrocketing IATs, so that is the answer to your problem: Forester XT oil regulator because I predict your needs will be the same as mine.

[Irace86.2.0]

Hoonicorn V2 1400hp Twin Turbo V8...that bumper and those stacked coolers. I don’t think the setup will be adequate. Someone should let Ken know.

[gen3v8]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Hoonicorn V2 1400hp Twin Turbo V8...that bumper and those stacked coolers. I don’t think the setup will be adequate. Someone should let Ken know.

No intercooler there

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gen3v8

No intercooler there

Exactly, I was hoping someone would catch that. Apparently the solution is no intercoolers and to just run meth injection. One less heat exchanger.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Hoonicorn V2 1400hp Twin Turbo V8...that bumper and those stacked coolers. I don’t think the setup will be adequate. Someone should let Ken know.

Turbos, exhaust, and intake manifold are out the hood helps keeps temps down.
And running on pure methanol for fuel keeps temps way down.
So they don’t need or run an intercooler. No cooler stacking.

Also that is a pretty decent size front opening with good airflow direction going into it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Turbos, exhaust, and intake manifold are out the hood helps keeps temps down.
And running on pure methanol for fuel keeps temps way down.
So they don’t need or run an intercooler. No cooler stacking.

Also that is a pretty decent size front opening with good airflow direction going into it.

Thanks! Another good idea for the OP: have the turbo stick out of the hood. Probably a solid cooling technique to add to his budgetless build. Either that, or he could add a custom scoop to the hood to channel air to the exhaust components. What other great ideas could we add to this thread to curb these cooling dilemmas?

How about water sprays for the intercooler?

[86TOYO2k17]

Assuming mounting the oil cooler behind the fog light doesn’t result in oil temps being too high.
What is the down side?
Wouldn’t it be all positive results?

Even if the benefits are small and minuscule it should still help the intercooler and or radiator not have it all so stacked up. I see no down side unless doing so resulted in too high of oil temps, which is highly dependent on car use and how exactly you set it up behind the fog light. Many ways to set up to make that a non issue. And that could also be a side benefit to purposefully restrict air flow to oil cooler to help allow faster warm up.

If cost and or difficulty of mounting an oil cooler behind fog light is a concern I would be more concerned with that individual aptitude for working on their car as it was one of the cheapest, simplest, and easiest mods I’ve done, no more difficult or expensive than mounting in front of radiator. So again I see zero down side unless it results in oil temps being too high, which it should not.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Assuming mounting the oil cooler behind the fog light doesn’t result in oil temps being too high.
What is the down side?
Wouldn’t it be all positive results?

Even if the benefits are small and minuscule it should still help the intercooler and or radiator not have it all so stacked up. I see no down side unless doing so resulted in too high of oil temps, which is highly dependent on car use and how exactly you set it up behind the fog light. Many ways to set up to make that a non issue. And that could also be a side benefit to purposefully restrict air flow to oil cooler to help allow faster warm up.

If cost and or difficulty of mounting an oil cooler behind fog light is a concern I would be more concerned with that individual aptitude for working on their car as it was one of the cheapest, simplest, and easiest mods I’ve done, no more difficult or expensive than mounting in front of radiator. So again I see zero down side unless it results in oil temps being too high, which it should not.

Sure, a side mount oil cooler is fine, but if someone wanted to see a benefit then they might want to make sure airflow to the cooler is adequate to equal to a front mount and that the air has an escape path or pressure will just build. Of course a side mount setup will block an access area for the brake ducts or may push dirty air onto them. The bumper might need to be significantly modified to accommodate the cooler too. Expense will depend on the lengths the OP wants to go to make it a successful modification.

But this isn’t just an oil cooler dilemma: the intercooler is blocking the radiator still. Need to do a V-mount, except now the veins aren’t parallel to the air, so flow is mildly impeded. The larger the exchangers, the more aggressive the angle on the V-mount. So many dilemmas to consider for structural supports, cooler sizes, channeling the air, venting the air, etc.

[Jdmjunkie]

Vmount oil cooler?

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Sure, a side mount oil cooler is fine, but if someone wanted to see a benefit then they might want to make sure airflow to the cooler is adequate to equal to a front mount and that the air has an escape path or pressure will just build. Of course a side mount setup will block an access area for the brake ducts or may push dirty air onto them. The bumper might need to be significantly modified to accommodate the cooler too. Expense will depend on the lengths the OP wants to go to make it a successful modification.

But this isn’t just an oil cooler dilemma: the intercooler is blocking the radiator still. Need to do a V-mount, except now the veins aren’t parallel to the air, so flow is mildly impeded. The larger the exchangers, the more aggressive the angle on the V-mount. So many dilemmas to consider for structural supports, cooler sizes, channeling the air, venting the air, etc.

Who said anything about needing brake ducts?

Is having an oil cooler in front of the intercooler make the intercooler hotter or colder? Even if by only 1 degree?

If it does make the intercooler hotter even by only 1 degree and moving the oil cooler behind fog light DOESN’T result in the oil getting too hot. Then there is zero downside. Considering it is zero extra work or money to set it up behind the fog light vs in front of intercooler it seems like a no brainer.

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Thanks! Another good idea for the OP: have the turbo stick out of the hood. Probably a solid cooling technique to add to his budgetless build. Either that, or he could add a custom scoop to the hood to channel air to the exhaust components. What other great ideas could we add to this thread to curb these cooling dilemmas?

How about water sprays for the intercooler?

i have 2 wrx sti nozzle for intercooler waterspray that i can activate with the fog switch, it 's pretty cool to spray for some seconds and see the charge temp drop and stop climbing when full gas on boost
Also to drop quickly the temp in the summer after a stop and the hood totally heatsoaked

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Who said anything about needing brake ducts?

Is having an oil cooler in front of the intercooler make the intercooler hotter or colder? Even if by only 1 degree?

If it does make the intercooler hotter even by only 1 degree and moving the oil cooler behind fog light DOESN’T result in the oil getting too hot. Then there is zero downside. Considering it is zero extra work or money to set it up behind the fog light vs in front of intercooler it seems like a no brainer.

This is all hypothetical, remember? We have no parameters for discussing what is best for the OP or anyone. We are free to discuss all potential situations, up to and including, the least or best case scenarios. It could be imperceptibly better to move an oil cooler from blocking an intercooler, depending on the scenario, and I could imagine scenarios where it could also be unnecessary to concern one's self with brake ducting, but then again, in another scenario, brake ducting might be just as high or higher on the priority list than maximizing the intercooler's efficiency. It all depends.

We don't really know. Do you? Do you have an example of anyone saying their IATs were higher after installing their oil cooler in front of their intercooler, or has anyone measured the temperature of the air coming through the oil cooler? Even if they did, there may still be enough time and enough of a temperature differential to drop the temperature to the same level regardless. We can guess, but we don't know unless you have something compelling to share. Do you? I'm open to seeing the data and changing my mind.

You are correct that there is minimal differences in extra weight, moving weight to the corner/polls of the car, oil requirements, cost or complexity, depending on what someone ultimately decides to do of course, and you are correct that under many situations, the decreased air flow will probably not effect be detrimental to oil cooling, and if brake cooling is not a priority then it may not matter, so you are correct, under a certain set of hypothetical situations, it could be fine, but the OP seems to want something ideal, and maybe that isn't ideal. It might be fine for you, and it could be fine for him, but it might not be either. We just don't know because the OP hasn't clarified his goals or needs.

The OP asked about doing a top mount intercooler too in his second post, I presume to avoid stacking the intercooler in front of the radiator like he mentions in his first post, so it sounds like he will have extreme cooling needs if he wants to do more than just relocate the oil cooler, yet most STIs, for example, move from a top mount intercooler to a FMIC or V-mount setup, so they can support a much larger intercooler and have the necessary airflow.