Vacci-Nation [CLOSED DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL, INSULTING, POLITICAL POSTS

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I understand it to be a copy of the spike protein. Are you saying that the injected mRNA may, as a byproduct of its main function, inadvertently create something that mutates ones own DNA?

Yeah that's the claim is that is tells ribsomes to make the spike protein and then it just breaks down without ever entering the nucleus of a cell... sounds great but we'll see. I still see humans hijacking the genetic process. Yeah maybe the virus does too, and maybe this is way safer. But maybe we accidentally do something we didn't think of. The at-risk people can go ahead and get the vaccine, and if it works then they should have nothing to worry about right? Like I said I'm not trying to be in the first wave.

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[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

So, what's a good way to whack this particular weed? All my queries have returned documents saying "take our word for it." mRNA doesn't enter the nucleus but perhaps some by-product does. I'm looking for a way to refute that.

If my approach is misguided, can you point me in the right direction?

which particular "weed" are you referring to? I was referring to the overall anti-vaccination because of _(changing DNA, microchipping, toxic poison/poisonous ingredients, etc.)_ statements.

It sounds like your "weed" is regarding 'mRNA potentially entering the nucleus'?

Yes, some mRNA can and will enter the nucleus, but it doesn't do anything there are it would get digested by the RNAse into nucleobases. If mRNA is used and served its translation purpose (mRNA → proteins), RNAse comes to cleave/cut up the mRNA into the nucleobases again. These nucleobases are recycled for DNA/RNA, energy, or other cellular functions. Yes the "Lego" pieces of mRNA used in the vaccine will be broken up and recycled by your cells (as does every endogenous/exogenous mRNA). The pieces can be moved throughout the cell (nucleus included) be it via entropy/protein-guided, and will be used for something else.

The mRNA entering the nucleus doesn't do anything to our DNA because humans lack reverse transcriptase enzyme (which would provide the function of transcribing RNA sequence into DNA). Even if humans DID have this function, human DNA has proteins that double checks the DNA sequence matches the other strand. If it doesn't, the strand gets chopped up and DNA polymerase comes back in to properly copy the father strand. (Not even going into nitty-gritty details that DNA sequence is not exact mirror to mRNA sequence ~)
And lets say it gets past this check point, then the immune system will detect foreign proteins synthesized by the foreign DNA sequence. This will cause the immune response to attack the source of the foreign protein and eventually find the root cause cell and trigger cellular death be it apoptosis or phagocytosis or what have you.

(That being said, there is ongoing research into reverse transcriptase for humans as it is one of the potential reasons for aging - fun topic, why do we age?).

The only "alteration" one can argue is epigenetics. Which can be both important or so insignificant that it's not even worth discussing. With regards to vaccinations, it's an insignificant impact. It's like on par with comparing "running your car with or without DRL on your car during the day" insignificance in terms of vaccinations-epigenetics.

-----------------------

The easiest way to find academic information for people not in the scientific community would be to go to your library (online is fine) and search for a public access biology textbook. Textbooks are reviewed by several PhD's within the field and are regularly updated (often for $, to the bane of college students' wallets, sometimes for typos/error correction) to learn the general mechanics. If you want to dive further, pick up a biology focused biochem textbook (trust me, chemistry focused biochem isn't something you want to touch).

If you try to go on NEJM/PNAS/NATURE/etc. journals, you'll find information way over your head. Heck, majority will be over my head as I am not specializing in research of that specific niche topic. I can read up on it and catch up on the topic, but you need to realize most of those articles are published with aims of contesting the current standard of knowledge and push the boundaries of what humans as a society know. So you'll be able to find outlandish hypotheses and the arguments for them. Part of being a researcher is analyzing the logic behind the published article to determine whether or not that is a sound logic and whether or not the data supports the logic. Scholarly journals are literal public forums where scientists throw their months/years of research into the scholarly public eyes and ears, hoping their work gets picked up and catches the attention of others. Most are ignored, but those work gets picked up by others to feed into the next step of researching a question that probes deeper. And this continues until a groundbreaking discovery happens which may have a chance of revealing a new method of treating diseases. To which will trigger further research, in biological, medical, and pharmaceutical forks in the research.

Originally Posted by p1l0t

Yeah that's the claim is that is tells ribsomes to make the spike protein and then it just breaks down without ever entering the nucleus of a cell... sounds great but we'll see. I still see humans hijacking the genetic process. Yeah maybe the virus does too, and maybe this is way safer. But maybe we accidentally do something we didn't think of. The at-risk people can go ahead and get the vaccine, and if it works then they should have nothing to worry about right? Like I said I'm not trying to be in the first wave.

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You've got a better chance of winning the lotto multiple times for the next several years than the spike protein doing anything significant to your DNA. Yes it may bind to the nuclear membrane, but doesn't do anything else. Protein function is defined by its structure. Once the protein is synthesized, some of it gets pushed outside of the cell to allow the immune cells to bind to it and recognize it as foreign.

Once the antigen (protein) is recognized as foreign, it triggers immune response to that specific antigen. Once immune response is complete and the body has cleared itself of this foreign antigen, the immune system creates memory immune cells. These cells floats around and doesn't reactivate unless it binds to that same antigen (again, protein structure specific), meaning you have been exposed to covid. The memory cell then activates a faster and more robust immune response than a person that did not have the vaccine. This is how vaccines work. So if your immune system is on the weaker end then it is still technically possible to get covid even with the vaccine. Albeit extremely unlikely.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

It sounds like your "weed" is regarding 'mRNA potentially entering the nucleus'?

Yes and I see now that I would have failed miserably. Thanks very much for taking the time. I'll settle for reading up on the topics you mentioned.

[spike021]

Moderna mRNA sequence released to GitHub [pdf]

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Great to hear from you! Nothing really. If you don't mind scrolling back the last couple days, I've decided on an exercise to try to learn enough to explain how it's impossible for mRNA to affect DNA. Turned out to be quite a challenge. The link I shared discusses RNA-to-DNA from an evolutionary standpoint but doesn't help me with a direction to study.

Are you able to support this?

I’ll check it out tonight.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’ll check it out tonight.

Meh... Schooled by @Bonburner. Was a fool's errand.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Yes and I see now that I would have failed miserably. Thanks very much for taking the time. I'll settle for reading up on the topics you mentioned.

Never mind, I think Bonburner gave enough info.

The other takeaway is that even without reverse transcriptase, the abundance of intercellular chaos can potentially lead to DNA damage, which can lead to cancers, but like Bonburner said, the rate of damage is so small and the rate of repair is so much more robust that getting cancer might be a lottery event. As such is the case, the mortality rate for COVID for any age group so vastly exceeds the cancer rate risk that for anyone to be more concerned with the vaccine is nonsensical.

If someone wanted to understand the processes by which viruses could lead to cancer then they could check out HPV and cervical cancer, as an example.

I think the clearest and simplest concept for anyone to understand about this vaccine is that the COVID virus is already injecting its genetic code into our cells to produce whole viruses—copies of itself. We are instead just delivering a fraction of this genetic code to the cell so just the spike protein is made. If that mRNA could cause cancer/DNA damage then COVID has a much greater likelihood of causing cancer.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I think the clearest and simplest concept for anyone to understand about this vaccine is that the COVID virus is already injecting its genetic code into our cells to produce whole viruses—copies of itself. We are instead just delivering a fraction of this genetic code to the cell so just the spike protein is made. If that mRNA could cause cancer/DNA damage then COVID has a much greater likelihood of causing cancer.

This has been my mantra. I hoped to step up to the challenge of logically refuting what I think is a reasonable question.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You say all my ideas are backwards then agree that coupling insurance to your job is bad...???

Private insurance doesn't fix a problem. Here is the problem: I don't have insurance, but go to the ER, and I don't pay my bill. What should happen? Option 1 is you don't let me in without insurance, but what if I am a trauma patient and my wallet is lost in my car or left at home, or I am found unconscious at the grocery store. We can't deny access for emergency care based on a need to immediately prove adequate insurance coverage or an ability to pay back the bill. Ok 2, so if someone doesn't pay then we will send them to jail or take their possessions or have them file bankruptcy. Well, this isn't far off. The number one reason for bankruptcy is medical bills. Meanwhile, the hospital just raises the premiums for private insurance anyways, so whether it is through taxation or through higher premiums, someone is paying for someone else, except in the latter case, it is far more because there isn't a mandate via taxation for everyone to contribute something.

What about those pesky regulations that government uses to regulate the insurance industry? Should we throw out those too like laws against denying people insurance or raising their premiums to astronomical levels because they have a preexisting condition or because they are older?

Did you know government healthcare has the highest customer satisfaction out of all insurance providers?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/186527/...satisfied.aspx





I already said that the average person makes more money, so it doesn't matter if someone is making six or seven figures and someone is using their college education as a stay at home parent to better develop their child and will never have a paycheck, THE AVERAGE person makes more money, which is a gain to our economy in higher GDP, more production, less dependency on government assistance, less incidence of going to jail/prison, higher taxes going back into the government, etc. Yes, some pay for more than others, just like with insurance, where some use the system more than others, or with taxes in general, how some pay more than others and some reap more of the benefits than others.

Prices for tuition are much better controlled when college is free and the government sets a standard for reimbursement. Currently, a student takes out government loans and private loans for college, and prices keep going up because people will just take out more loans, and unfortunately, it is the private colleges which typically use private loans that most often are defaulted on.

In a system with no government regulations or support, someone either has the money or doesn't for school, and school is expensive because it isn't federally supported with loans, nor is it state funded, so all we have is private schools with large tuition. This greatly limits who can get into school because only those families and individuals who can pay for college go. But I forgot...we have no regulations. I suppose then students will just find a way to get into school, even if it means taking out private student loans, and then they will just default on the loans and declare bankruptcy and not have to pay their loans. They could do that because we would be getting rid of government regulations, specifically the one saying student loans can't be written off from bankruptcy. I guess we are back to free college.

Both of these assumptions are factually incorrect, the reason healthcare, and education, including college education, are so expensive in this country is specifically because of the government involvement in these entities. Healthcare and education alike are no longer viewed as things to benefit the greater good, they are instead big, big business raking in huge profits because of government involvement.

In the past I worked for a large medicare and medicaid provider, my wife worked for a very large independent healthcare provider. The independent provider used to create their own cost formularies (what they paid providers) for office visits, drugs, procedures, etc. that they covered. Then they negotiated with doctors, hospitals, drug companies, etc. to get the best agreed price. Enter goverment healthcare (medicaid, medicare, etc.) who didn't initially use formularies, they would pay whatever they were charged based on an agreed fair pricing. As providers & drug companies found out, no one in the government was checking if the prices they were paying were fair, so the prices kept increasing, to the point that independent companies were forced to pay higher prices as well or avoid losing providers and access to drugs. Eventually the government caught on and created a task force to publish their own formularies of what they would pay, they worked with independent healthcare insurers to create a standard formulary, that all healthcare would use. So the independents no longer created their own, and began using the government formularies. The government said maintaining the formulary was cost prohibitive asked the providers and healthcare companies to again only charge a fair cost, not to exceed a certain percentage increase annually. And they agreed, so since then, all formularies, government of independent were subject to the same cost increases annually. So the drug companies increase the costs annually, increasing the cost of drugs created years and years ago. With newer drugs and procedures they are able to set any price they claim is "fair". Same reason a single Tylenol is $64 at the hospital instead of a bottle of $2.19 for a bottle of 325. And like magic healthcare is too expensive. The medicare/medicaid company I worked for had an active State Senator on the staff..., had her own office at the company. She helped pass the laws that benefitted the company. Including one that allowed medicare/medicaid providers to sell their member lists to other medicare/medicaid companies. Why? Because each time soemone signed up to a new company, the government paid the company a signing bonus for that person, and different companies could get that signing bonus for the SAME person as long as it had been longer than 1 year since signing with another company. The company I worked for made billions doing this. Meanwhile taxes, and medical care got more expensive.

Education is the same way, you must go or you will not be successful. Indebting a new class of debtors every school year with the lure of success with a wealth iof useless majors for average students while millions of decent paying tradesman jobs go to those scurrying across the border; electricians, carpenter/framers, plumbers, steelworkers, welders, auto technicians, installers, etc. all because we raise our kids to think success is only found with a degree, and not in a trade.

Just like oil, coal & auto companies are huge backers of the right, healthcare, education & technology are huge backers of the left and they are all taking care of each other...not any of us.

[surfwaxsmitty]

Big thanks to Bonburner and others for taking the time to elaborate on the nuance of this discussion.

For anyone that wants some clarity on the relationship between DNA, RNA, mRNA, etc. check this video out.

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

You've got a better chance of winning the lotto multiple times for the next several years than the spike protein doing anything significant to your DNA. Yes it may bind to the nuclear membrane, but doesn't do anything else. Protein function is defined by its structure. Once the protein is synthesized, some of it gets pushed outside of the cell to allow the immune cells to bind to it and recognize it as foreign.

Once the antigen (protein) is recognized as foreign, it triggers immune response to that specific antigen. Once immune response is complete and the body has cleared itself of this foreign antigen, the immune system creates memory immune cells. These cells floats around and doesn't reactive unless it binds to that same antigen (again, protein structure specific), meaning you have been exposed to covid. The memory cell then activates a faster and more robust immune response than a person that did not have the vaccine. This is how vaccines work. So if your immune system is on the weaker end then it is still technically possible to get covid even with the vaccine. Albeit extremely unlikely.

See now you're the first person to actually address the AFTER part of the process. And it does actually make me feel a little bit better. I'm not going out tomorrow to get it... but thank you for that.




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[Opie]

I can't stop laughing over the fear that has been instilled into so many over this virus. I'm still in a high risk group, still traveling around the country, to the stores, on airplanes, eating out at restaurants...have been wearing a mask around others and washing my hands, and, other than on airplanes, maintaining my distance....still caught the virus, was a "different" feel than others viruses/flu, but beat it in short order. Contact traced those who had been around me, none got it, stayed sequestered as per Dr orders, no one in my household got it. Have been offered the vaccine 3 times because of my "high risk" categorization and have decided against getting the vaccine until the trials, that you all are unknowingly participating in, are complete and it gets full FDA approval as I will not risk my rights against any potential liabilities the emergency use vaccines may cause as they will not be covered currently.

I have had multiple acquaintances that have also contracted the virus, some minor, some moderate, some major and even one that was fatal so I do not think this was a hoax, but it was certainly manipulated to cause an unnecessary amount of fear in the populous.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

See now you're the first person to actually address the AFTER part of the process. And it does actually make me feel a little bit better. I'm not going out tomorrow to get it... but thank you for that.

You're welcome.

[BigHugeFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Opie

I have had multiple acquaintances that have also contracted the virus, some minor, some moderate, some major and even one that was fatal so I do not think this was a hoax, but it was certainly manipulated to cause an unnecessary amount of fear in the populous.

Not manipulation. That denotes competence. If anything, government reactions proved their near-total incompetence had this been a pants-crapping pandemic, with say, a 10% fatality rate. The only ones manipulating for fear was/are the media, and that's just the usual clickbait for the $ (said as a journalism major).

Got moderna #2 last Friday. After having COVID in Jan, and unable to work for 2 weeks, I'll never do that crap again. Sign me up for the Russian one.

Besides, mRNA, salt, fat, and sugar is basically a Big Mac.