BRZ vs Cayman/Corvette

[Agent 86]

Originally Posted by strmshadow84

I think the reason why, is because Porsche downgraded from a H6 to a H4. When you drop down in cylinders it's usually considered a downgrade. But I also think the reason is because they see it as Porsche once again downgrading the Cayman to make that they protect the 911's status. And now your paying more for less.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been a problem if they would have started the Cayman out as a H4.

I can appreciate that line of thinking, although, I do not agree that it's a downgrade. If I thought that way, I probably would have selected a Corvette Grand Sport; for less.

I think a lot of the negative comments come from enthusiast that have not driven the H4 982s. Again, very similar to the negative comments hurled at the Twins from enthusiast that have never driven a BRZ or FRS. Sure, it's not going to be for everyone, but at least drive it first.

I didn't have any of the bias of nostalgia when I began shopping for a Cayman. Well, that's not completely true. I knew that I wanted a Porsche (poster on the wall as a kid and all that).

I test drove the H6 and the H4. I felt that the 2 cars were very similar in terms of ride, comfort, handling and steering. However, the acceleration and early torque from the H4 was immediately apparent. It was an easy decision for me.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

Yep, I agree with this list/sequence completely. Budget and usage dictate this decision a lot. They are all great.

The steering feedback from the revised EPS on the 718s is better than the 981 models. Not 987 good, but definitely better.

Interesting, hopefully I'll get a chance to sit in a 718 sometime to compare. It would be great to be able to compare to a 911 GT3 as well, which they say has much more feel.

I've come to think that the 981 steering is actually not too bad. The weight is decent, although it seems to intentionally have no feedback, and the steering wheel is a little too big for executing quick turns.

In some way this is a good thing; on the freeway my MR2 Spyder steering is very lively, but I've had a couple situations where I overcorrected a "twitch" and the car fishtailed a bit which was scary. Part of that is because the MR2 steering is overboosted, but if you turn off the power steering, you feel the wheel jerking around in your hand despite the resistance from the closed hydraulic circuit, which is amazing. I am guessing it comes down to steering/suspension geometry. The 981 seems to be a very good "cruiser", and feels very confident but not edgy when driven aggressively. Crank the wheel, the car goes where you think it should with no fuss and no effort on your part, which I can see being a desirable feature for the average driver.

The FR-S steering is really quite nice, it has a little bit more weight than the 981, some amount of feedback, and not too twitchy. Maybe a slightly quicker rack would be nice.

As far as the 987.2 goes, I think an often overlooked option is the 987.2 base. At 2.9L it's got a little more torque than the 981's 2.7L, and it's port injected which means lower maintenance costs, in theory. I saw a 100k mile one for 25k last year but decided to pass on it in favor of the FR-S to be more financially responsible lol. The biggest thing that bothers me about the base models is that the engine block is basically identical but they shrink the bores dramatically to drop the displacement, so the engine weighs much more despite having way smaller displacement. Given the rather stiff and heavy chassis, it seems like the platform was designed to handle the higher hp of the 3.4-3.8L motors, which feels like a waste. However for the casual driver, this isn't something you'd pay attention to or be bothered by.

[EAGLE5]

I don't thinks steering feel and twitchiness are the same thing. You can have lots of feel and great stability, or no feel and instability.

[funwheeldrive]

You guys make me feel poor

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Interesting, hopefully I'll get a chance to sit in a 718 sometime to compare. It would be great to be able to compare to a 911 GT3 as well, which they say has much more feel.

Man, does it ever. I rank the GT3 I drove above both the Cayman R and 458 I tracked at the same place.

[strmshadow84]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

I can appreciate that line of thinking, although, I do not agree that it's a downgrade. If I thought that way, I probably would have selected a Corvette Grand Sport; for less.

I think a lot of the negative comments come from enthusiast that have not driven the H4 982s. Again, very similar to the negative comments hurled at the Twins from enthusiast that have never driven a BRZ or FRS. Sure, it's not going to be for everyone, but at least drive it first.

I didn't have any of the bias of nostalgia when I began shopping for a Cayman. Well, that's not completely true. I knew that I wanted a Porsche (poster on the wall as a kid and all that).

I test drove the H6 and the H4. I felt that the 2 cars were very similar in terms of ride, comfort, handling and steering. However, the acceleration and early torque from the H4 was immediately apparent. It was an easy decision for me.

The H4 only feels like an upgrade because it was made to be slightly better the same way Porsche does all their different tiers S vs GTS (software commanding 10k difference I do kniw there's more than that though)

It's the same way people compare a v6 and a v8 camaro/mustang. A better comparison would be if they changed a corvette from a v8 to a v6 most people would pretty much hate it because it would basically be a downgrade even if the car was faster.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I mean price no object I'd own a GT4, 987R, 981 GTS or 987.2 CS in that order. But all of those are way too rich for my blood

I think I'd take a 987R over a GT4.

I wasn't that impressed by the GT4: it's surprisingly large in-person, and it's got that "too fast for the road" feel, with gears so long you never get out of second while doing any kind of weekend driving. It also felt like it has that 991-era, gives-no-fucks-about-your-inputs-and-just-goes suspension feel (it felt a little like the 991 GT3).

I'm sure a GT4 would be a great track car, but for road driving it kind of felt too proficient to be interesting.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

You guys make me feel poor

haha, thats what i think when i am tracking my 987.1 Cayman against new GT3s, Ferraris and McLarens. I am the scrub of my group, especially when in a BRZ. But, i keep up pretty well. Thank god for tracks under 2 miles in length.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I think I'd take a 987R over a GT4.

I'm sure a GT4 would be a great track car, but for road driving it kind of felt too proficient to be interesting.

Yeah, after the shock of owning a GT4 wore off after a few months, i think you are likely correct. The Cayman R is a great road/track car.

The GT4 is more serious, and those cars tend to not be as exciting on the road after you realize that you can never utilize its talents. But, the idea of a 3.8l finally being put right behind my butt in the Cayman, makes me feel pretty good.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I think I'd take a 987R over a GT4.

I wasn't that impressed by the GT4: it's surprisingly large in-person, and it's got that "too fast for the road" feel, with gears so long you never get out of second while doing any kind of weekend driving.

Unfortunately that's still the case with even a 987.1. Second gear in my Cayman S is good for 75 mph, third over 110...

In fact the gearing between my car and a GT4 is probably quite similar, when you consider the GT4's redline is 600 rpm higher.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Unfortunately that's still the case with even a 987.1. Second gear in my Cayman S is good for 75 mph, third over 110...

In fact the gearing between my car and a GT4 is probably quite similar, when you consider the GT4's redline is 600 rpm higher.

Yeah it wasn't so much any one thing as it was the combination of all the things. My 997 will do 60-something (maybe 70? I can't remember) in second too, but it's got steering feel and it rolls around and has a light front end that likes to understeer unless you make it stick, so there are other things to keep you interested.

The GT4 just felt a little clinical-- like you didn't really have to pay attention to anything at all to go fast.

Closer gearing would be fun. It would be nice to be able to bounce it off the rev limiter a few times before 75mph.

[track junkie]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I think I'd take a 987R over a GT4.

I wasn't that impressed by the GT4: it's surprisingly large in-person, and it's got that "too fast for the road" feel, with gears so long you never get out of second while doing any kind of weekend driving. It also felt like it has that 991-era, gives-no-fucks-about-your-inputs-and-just-goes suspension feel (it felt a little like the 991 GT3).

I'm sure a GT4 would be a great track car, but for road driving it kind of felt too proficient to be interesting.

I agree, daily driving the GT4 is a waste of potential.

It does comes alive on winding roads the faster you go. The computers automatically stiffen up the active suspension and the dynamic engine mounts when the g-force increases. It's more responsive the more aggressively you drive.

The GT4 requires more steering force than the BRZ so that will prevent many testers from discovering it's incredible steering responsiveness.

For a weekend car it's great, the engine feels and sounds incredible and what a great shifting gearbox.

[EAGLE5]

You guys are explaining exactly why I don't have a Porsche. Too fast for the street. Hence twins.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

You guys are explaining exactly why I don't have a Porsche. Too fast for the street. Hence twins.

Yes and no. It takes a lot longer to get a BRZ up to speed, but with a few suspension tweaks it's still a pretty fast car through the corners. I'm definitely between 60 and 85mph on most mountain roads if I'm pushing it hard. Twisty highway, mind you-- not super-tight canyons.

You need something REALLY slow / down on grip to make an effective "fun at legal speeds" car. As in, full vintage car status-- horrible (but fun!) suspension, no power, bad brakes, bicycle tyres, etc