So before there was a BRZ, what was the equivalent?

[Justin.b]

Who here has seen a GT2000 or Sports 800 in person? If you need to go back 50 years and across the Pacific to round out a small handful of sportscar examples, I would say that's actually more ammo for the other side of the argument.

If sportscars were something Toyota did well and often, you wouldn't have to think back to get a few decent examples. Toyota had even stopped bothering with sporty versions of their cars.

-Justin

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Who here has seen a GT2000 or Sports 800 in person? If you need to go back 50 years and across the Pacific to round out a small handful of sportscar examples, I would say that's actually more ammo for the other side of the argument.

If sportscars were something Toyota did well and often, you wouldn't have to think back to get a few decent examples. Toyota had even stopped bothering with sporty versions of their cars.

-Justin

well if you look at the oldest ones then yeah its been a while. when you think about the mr2 which ended production in 2007 and then the lfa which began production in 2010, i think its been too long. they honestly put out two crazy cool cars in the last two years. why do people trash talk them for not making sports cars? what sports cars has subaru made? the impreza?

[carbonBLUE]

I will not be sucked into this! WOOO!

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Who here has seen a GT2000 or Sports 800 in person? If you need to go back 50 years and across the Pacific to round out a small handful of sportscar examples, I would say that's actually more ammo for the other side of the argument.

If sportscars were something Toyota did well and often, you wouldn't have to think back to get a few decent examples. Toyota had even stopped bothering with sporty versions of their cars.

-Justin

I have! I saw a 2000GT in person when I was stationed in Okinawa in 1973. At the time, I had a 1969 Camaro Z28 back home. I was not impressed by the tiny little TOY ota. My taste have become more refined since then.

[go2brz]

toyota did build a sports car on their own. i named about a dozen of them. you keep contradicting yourself. toyota has unlimited resources but somehow they can build a sports car?

nobody cares what cars you have had. paris hilton has an lfa, that doesnt make her a voice of authority.

none of the "facts" that you state have anything to do with what you are trying to say. how do saab and tesla fit into this? here are some facts:

lexus won the 24hr at daytona in 2006-2008 (three consecutive years sounds like a commitment to me) and a couple years ago they won both the 300 and 500 jgtc classes. is six years ago too long ago for you? please tell me all about what subaru has done since then, or ever in fact.

toyota has more wrc wins than subaru. i would love for you to tell me just one competition where subaru is more successful than toyota.

at only 200 lbs heavier than the sti, the supra would pull .98g on the skidpad and thats with 15 year old tire technology. how well does the sti grip?

lets talk more about how toyota outsources everything and learns nothing because being the only car manufacturer with a crazy circular carbon fiber loom isnt going to change car culture in the least.

if toyota has never made a "true" sports car, neither has subaru.

Name me one Toyota car that is remembered or listed by auto writers, classic car magazines, as being a memorable "sports car". Don't list off thier failures and classify them as meaningful cars to the sports car history.

I don't care one bit what you think about my history of rebuilding, racing and winning trophies with sports cars that are remembered and gaining in value as they grow older. I only went there because you or some other Toyota excuse maker decide I was just a fanboy and questioned my knowledge and experience with automobiles. It was that person who seemed to think it was important to have some credentials so I listed them It was not bragging, it was out of defense of being told that I must not know much. If you missed that, then you should read every post and give smart responses instead of giving me crap. You are the one making personal remarks.

I never said anything about Subaru being great, I only said that this car was great and that Subaru had more to do with it being great than Toyota, and that they had more purity of concept when they went to make a vehicle than Toyota does. And yes I do believe that one of the largest and richest auto companies in the world should be able to make this care if they felt they could do it right. But they asked Subaru to do it. (One of he smallest independent mass producer of cars in the world could not sell enough units to justify development costs of a complete platform not usable for other models, so yes they needed Toyota. To make the car viable in sales numbers to be profitable and sustainable) If a wealthy car company wanted to build a game changing "affordable" sports cars, why would they ask someone else to do the design work of the platform, and use their engine design, providing little else. So just tell me what is made by Toyota in this car besides the ECU managment with direct injection system? Not much. What input did they have in the platform layout and engineering? Not much according to the chariman of Toyota which again is in public print from back in April of 2012. Facts are facts. people can ignore them quite easily if they don't want to believe them, but don't condemn me for reminding people of those facts.

You see different reasons than I do. Fine, I don't really care if you agree with me. But it turned into a bunch of bull from people who either choose to ignore things as they were written, or to put words in my posts that were never there. Believe what you like, but to say that Toyota dragged Subaru into making a car for them says many things that conflicts with your base argument. All of which some here choose to ignore.

Originally Posted by Justin.b
Who here has seen a GT2000 in person?

My point exactly. If Toyota had of mass produced the GT2000, then my earlier post would have been wrong. But they did not. There were very, very few of them built, never sold in production numbers.

In General as to the what constitutes a sports car, I tried to be clear but obviously was not. My reference would be a Lotus Elan, or a Datusn 240Z, or a Mazda Miata (and others) when I said a "true" sports car. A car that is very light, well balanced and has great road holding capability making it a fun car to drive around a road coarse or to autocross, and be truly competitive yet is affordable to most buyers. There are lots of great sporting cars, GT's, Touring and exotic cars made by mass producers, but not many of them fit this category. I think this car is in that class. Name me a Toyota that has dominated it's SCCA class, or it's autocrossing class in decades. There are none. But a little company that you want to disparage has done that. If a sports car can not do that then it has been compromised in design for sales/marketing or the power of bean counters. That seems to be the story of Toyota and sports/sporty cars that they mass produce. Sorry if you do not like my opinion, but at least it has a good amount of facts behind it, not blind allegiance to any one company.

[Bg8780]

Can't we just be happy and excited there are companies in the car industry that are willing to work together and give us enthsiasts a great car!? Especially in this era. Every sports car or exotic my future children will see are going to be damn hybrids. Growing up I had a poster above my bed and all over my room of cars that had screaming, brutal V8's and V12's. My poor son's dream cars will all have batteries in them.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by fatoni

well if you look at the oldest ones then yeah its been a while. when you think about the mr2 which ended production in 2007 and then the lfa which began production in 2010, i think its been too long. they honestly put out two crazy cool cars in the last two years. why do people trash talk them for not making sports cars? what sports cars has subaru made? the impreza?

Subaru fans aren't coming here talking about a great sportscar heritage.

-Justin

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Subaru fans aren't coming here talking about a great sportscar heritage.

-Justin

This whole argument precipitated because that one guy said Toyota never made a single successful sportscar and that Subaru had to bail them out. We were just correcting him.

There's obviously a team aspect in the development and we all get that, but to say Toyota was inept at creating a sportscar was ridiculous.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by go2brz

Name me one Toyota car that is remembered or listed by auto writers, classic car magazines, as being a memorable "sports car". Don't list off thier failures and classify them as meaningful cars to the sports car history.

Both the 2000GT and the MR2 are recognized by auto writers and classic car magazines as being memorable sports cars and benchmarks in sports car history.

The 2000GT as the first world class Japanese sports car. They have sold at collector car auctions for as much as $375,000 USD. This car spurred Datsun to build the 240Z.

The MR2 as the first Japanese mid-engined sports car. It was widely hailed by automobile journalist around the world as a groundbreaking achievement for Japanese automakers. Recently two automotive sites/publications have named the MR-S version of the car as a sports car classic. British automobile site Pistonhead and American publication Grassroots Motorsports listed it as a highly desirable sports car for a purest to own. The MR2 series of cars were produced in too great a number to quickly obtain collector status but low mileage pristine models can fetch their original selling price or more.

The AE86 (which I do not personally consider a sports car) is held in high esteem by automobile writers and car enthusiast everywhere. It has reached classic status and a perfect unmodified example will sell for much more than its original sticker price.

And no, I am not a Toyota fanboi. I own one now but I have actually owned more Datsun/Nissan and Mazda sports cars than I have Toyota.

Done here. /thread

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by go2brz

Name me one Toyota car that is remembered or listed by auto writers, classic car magazines, as being a memorable "sports car". Don't list off thier failures and classify them as meaningful cars to the sports car history.

I don't care one bit what you think about my history of rebuilding, racing and winning trophies with sports cars that are remembered and gaining in value as they grow older. I only went there because you or some other Toyota excuse maker decide I was just a fanboy and questioned my knowledge and experience with automobiles. It was that person who seemed to think it was important to have some credentials so I listed them It was not bragging, it was out of defense of being told that I must not know much. If you missed that, then you should read every post and give smart responses instead of giving me crap. You are the one making personal remarks.

I never said anything about Subaru being great, I only said that this car was great and that Subaru had more to do with it being great than Toyota, and that they had more purity of concept when they went to make a vehicle than Toyota does. And yes I do believe that one of the largest and richest auto companies in the world should be able to make this care if they felt they could do it right. But they asked Subaru to do it. (One of he smallest independent mass producer of cars in the world could not sell enough units to justify development costs of a complete platform not usable for other models, so yes they needed Toyota. To make the car viable in sales numbers to be profitable and sustainable) If a wealthy car company wanted to build a game changing "affordable" sports cars, why would they ask someone else to do the design work of the platform, and use their engine design, providing little else. So just tell me what is made by Toyota in this car besides the ECU managment with direct injection system? Not much. What input did they have in the platform layout and engineering? Not much according to the chariman of Toyota which again is in public print from back in April of 2012. Facts are facts. people can ignore them quite easily if they don't want to believe them, but don't condemn me for reminding people of those facts.

You see different reasons than I do. Fine, I don't really care if you agree with me. But it turned into a bunch of bull from people who either choose to ignore things as they were written, or to put words in my posts that were never there. Believe what you like, but to say that Toyota dragged Subaru into making a car for them says many things that conflicts with your base argument. All of which some here choose to ignore.




My point exactly. If Toyota had of mass produced the GT2000, then my earlier post would have been wrong. But they did not. There were very, very few of them built, never sold in production numbers.

In General as to the what constitutes a sports car, I tried to be clear but obviously was not. My reference would be a Lotus Elan, or a Datusn 240Z, or a Mazda Miata (and others) when I said a "true" sports car. A car that is very light, well balanced and has great road holding capability making it a fun car to drive around a road coarse or to autocross, and be truly competitive yet is affordable to most buyers. There are lots of great sporting cars, GT's, Touring and exotic cars made by mass producers, but not many of them fit this category. I think this car is in that class. Name me a Toyota that has dominated it's SCCA class, or it's autocrossing class in decades. There are none. But a little company that you want to disparage has done that. If a sports car can not do that then it has been compromised in design for sales/marketing or the power of bean counters. That seems to be the story of Toyota and sports/sporty cars that they mass produce. Sorry if you do not like my opinion, but at least it has a good amount of facts behind it, not blind allegiance to any one company.

the supra was a pretty memorable car and received much praise. the mr2 is every bit as sports car as the elan or miata (in fact, the spyder is over 100lbs lighter than the same year miatas). the gt2000 was a super car. why would you expect that to be mass produced? scca classes are stupid to judge cars by becuase when i car is good, they let it be outclassed. do you honestly believe the na6 miata is better than the na8? it wins more in autox races.

you might not have said anything explicitly great about subaru but you said was at least they were "a force in wrc" right after you talked about toyotas "miserable failures." not to sound like a broken record but, toyota has done better in wrc than subaru. thats one of those "facts" you initally brought up but, lately, keep ignoring.

look, i could go on and debate the doezens of pointless statements youve made. im not judging you by the cars youve owned. im judging you by the ridiculous things youre saying.

my bottom line is that toyota knows how to make great sports cars. when you put a bunch of subaru engineers with a bunch of toyota engineers, you get a great sports car.

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Subaru fans aren't coming here talking about a great sportscar heritage.

-Justin

that guy was. i dont really mean to disrespect that company any. i had a huge spot in my heart for the first wrx to make it stateside. it just bothers me when people talk like subaru did all the work because toyota cant make a sports car. if none of the dozen sports cars over the decades isnt a sports car, subaru has never even attempted to make a sports car. im not sure there is anything subaru can do better than toyota and thats okay because i really can respect them for their whole niche market thing.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by brewksy

This whole argument precipitated because that one guy said Toyota never made a single successful sportscar and that Subaru had to bail them out. We were just correcting him.

There's obviously a team aspect in the development and we all get that, but to say Toyota was inept at creating a sportscar was ridiculous.

I'd have to agree with him on that. Toyota *today* has been entirely full of fail on any performance car since the Supra. The MR-S was a flop, the Celica was a flop, the LFA was a flop.

I can't think of a car company less likely to deliver something like the ft86 than Toyota.

I'm glad it's here, but Toyota's own internal corporate culture makes it very difficult to expect great things from them. They don't take risks anymore. I had bet that the ft86 was going to end up weighing 3300 pounds and would be fitted with Camry seats. I'm pleasantly surprised, but it's very un-toyota.

-Justin

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

I'd have to agree with him on that. Toyota *today* has been entirely full of fail on any performance car since the Supra. The MR-S was a flop, the Celica was a flop, the LFA was a flop.

I can't think of a car company less likely to deliver something like the ft86 than Toyota.

I'm glad it's here, but Toyota's own internal corporate culture makes it very difficult to expect great things from them. They don't take risks anymore. I had bet that the ft86 was going to end up weighing 3300 pounds and would be fitted with Camry seats. I'm pleasantly surprised, but it's very un-toyota.

-Justin

performance cars or sports cars? the frs is a huge failure performance wise.
calling the mrs and the celica flops is a bit of an overstatement dont you think? the things lasted 25 years. like them or not the mr2 is in every sense a sports car and they didnt stop selling those until 2007.

the lfa is a flop just like the frs is a flop. they ignored chasing figures on a track and spent all their time and effort making a car that feels alive. subaru has never made a car that feels like a sports car. my friends old 450hp sti feels downright pedestrian compared a stock mr2. just because toyota makes their people movers like they are people movers it doesnt mean they will make their sports cars like them. just keep in mind that like it or not, toyotas last sports car they made was over 1000 lbs lighter than the last one subaru made.

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by fatoni

performance cars or sports cars? the frs is a huge failure performance wise.
calling the mrs and the celica flops is a bit of an overstatement dont you think? the things lasted 25 years. like them or not the mr2 is in every sense a sports car and they didnt stop selling those until 2007.

the lfa is a flop just like the frs is a flop. they ignored chasing figures on a track and spent all their time and effort making a car that feels alive. subaru has never made a car that feels like a sports car. my friends old 450hp sti feels downright pedestrian compared a stock mr2. just because toyota makes their people movers like they are people movers it doesnt mean they will make their sports cars like them. just keep in mind that like it or not, toyotas last sports car they made was over 1000 lbs lighter than the last one subaru made.

Are they even reading our posts? Even if they take the Supra as being the only performance car+ sports car + commercial success Toyota has had, it's still more than Subaru had. I absolutely love my STI, but people are crazy if they think Toyota doesn't know how to build a sports car. The LFA is a technical marvel and despite being overpriced, it sure wins votes for being a great driver's car. The MR2 just ended 5 years ago and was lauded for its balance and cult following of feel-influenced drivers. Toyota even has rally wins.

Subaru has the Impreza - an economic tarted up and put out to rallies where it's done well. But a great driver's car, it is not. And Subaru hasn't taken any risks in the last 4 years since the 2008 STI. I bought one because of that - they focused less on restyling and retooling and more on keeping the price low and that's why I bought it. Not because the platform is god's gift to driving or a bleeding edge sportscar.

Subaru and Toyota worked together on this car - maybe neither could have done it without the other. But claims that Toyota was some hobbled sportscar-inept conglomerate that needed Subaru's wisdom on how to create one just doesn't hold water.

[Justin.b]

The MRS was a single generation run lasting only a few years, same for the last Celica.

I'm not talking about performance necessarily - mainly sales.

And on the sales and performance front, the LFA is fail. Toyota takes so damn long to make a new car that the supercar bar moved twice while they were weaving their carbon fiber. They built the LFA to kick the F430s ass. Unfortunately by the time it came out it was sniffing the tailpipes of the 458 for almost double the price.

I'm not denying that Toyota HAS made some sports cars through the years, I'm just saying that their last successful sport cars were designed over 20 years ago.

-Justin