Is the BRZ doomed?!?!

[s0sl0w]

I'm only interested in a 2.5 if the redline is the same or higher, weight stays the same or drops and balance is retained or improved. Oh and keep the price the same.

Sounds like I'm not interested.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by s0sl0w

I'm only interested in a 2.5 if the redline is the same or higher, weight stays the same or drops and balance is retained or improved. Oh and keep the price the same.

Sounds like I'm not interested.

You'd have thinner cylinder walls that way, you know.

I highly doubt the price would stay the same, and I bet they'd drop the CR also.

They'd have to make this a seriously improved and more robust engine to interest me in a FA25 over what I've already got with the FA20.

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

No, they use the FB architecture that the FA was based off.

While the FA and FB engine share a common platform, the FA shares very little in dedicated parts with the FB engine, with a different block, head, connecting rods, and pistons. The FA also features direct injection (from Toyota) and Subaru AVCS variable valve timing system.

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

You'd have thinner cylinder walls that way, you know.

I highly doubt the price would stay the same, and I bet they'd drop the CR also.

They'd have to make this a seriously improved and more robust engine to interest me in a FA25 over what I've already got with the FA20.

Which was pretty much my point. A 2.5 would undoubtedly be faster but I don't think it'd necessarily be better and it'll almost certainly cost more.

[regal]

I don't think the BRZ is doomed, Subaru is holding all the cards. The have the assembly plant, the tooling, an engine on the shelf that puts the car into Porsche league.


Sales are very strong now, so neither co is going to make a big change till the sales drop off.


But when they do I can see Subaru tell Toyota the BRZ gets the FA20DIT at no price increase, Toyota pulls Scion from the market. Then international Toyota keeps selling the GT-86 with the FA20 and the BRZ sells with the FA20DIT at a big premium.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by regal

I don't think the BRZ is doomed, Subaru is holding all the cards. The have the assembly plant, the tooling, an engine on the shelf that puts the car into Porsche league.


Sales are very strong now, so neither co is going to make a big change till the sales drop off.


But when they do I can see Subaru tell Toyota the BRZ gets the FA20DIT at no price increase, Toyota pulls Scion from the market. Then international Toyota keeps selling the GT-86 with the FA20 and the BRZ sells with the FA20DIT at a big premium.

not to say that its doomed at all but i dont think they hold all the cards. at the end of the day its about selling cars and if toyota decided they didnt want and frs, i dont know if subaru could move enough cars to keep it a profitable model.

[Coolhand]

Given that the FT86s are no longer selling at a premium, and seem to have fallen off of most "10Best" type lists, Subaru may be forced to act quicker than it would like.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...t-cars-feature

Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ The chassis that was such a revelation in 2013 is still squirming under these Japanese twins, but its brilliance so blinded us that it took a year to notice that almost every other aspect is only average or worse. Still, keep either one in the garage for track days and canyon-road blasts.

Ouch.

[SirBrass]

Sounds like someone didn't pay their yearly cut to C&D.

This is still a great car, I don't care who derides it, whether it be C&D or CR.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by fatoni

not to say that its doomed at all but i dont think they hold all the cards. at the end of the day its about selling cars and if toyota decided they didnt want and frs, i dont know if subaru could move enough cars to keep it a profitable model.

That is a good point. But I think I read they agreed to stay on each others level for the initial sales period of the car and then they are free to go different ways with how they build them. Toyota sales are so big they wouldnt want to stop anytime soon. And once the variants and upgraded models are released sales will surge again. Subaru has the advantage of having both the FA20DIT and the FB16, FB20, or FB25 all capable of implementation, Toyota would have to ask nicely if they want to use those OR use the FA20 D4-S as a foundation for their version.

Either way both models will be around for a while... cant wait to see them react for the anticipated competition.

[MightyMeeple]

I for one would love to see an "upgraded" 86 with the FA20DIT engine....offer two trims, one with the FA20 and the other with the turbo. I would assume the FA20DIT weighs a bit more, and due to the shape wouldn't be able to be set as far back on the chassis...so curious to see how that would impact the balance of car compared to the current offering.

Would need MOAR tire on that upgrade as well...so the whole character of the car might be changed. Still, I would drive one and consider trading up to it.

[MightyMeeple]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Sounds like someone didn't pay their yearly cut to C&D.

This is still a great car, I don't care who derides it, whether it be C&D or CR.

Agreed. Car and Driver has some nice pictures...and that's about it.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by MightyMeeple

I for one would love to see an "upgraded" 86 with the FA20DIT engine....offer two trims, one with the FA20 and the other with the turbo. I would assume the FA20DIT weighs a bit more, and due to the shape wouldn't be able to be set as far back on the chassis...so curious to see how that would impact the balance of car compared to the current offering.

Would need MOAR tire on that upgrade as well...so the whole character of the car might be changed. Still, I would drive one and consider trading up to it.

FA20DIT is too tall to fit into the BRZ. You'd have to do significant relocation of parts and then you'd essentially just end up with an FA20 block with lots of custom fabrication to make the DIT model fit into the BRZ.

[w.k.s.]

I don't feel the brz is doomed. I do feel that the frs and brz will split ways eventually and each will take on the respective companies idea of a lightweight rwd coupe. I feel it's extremely likely that both cars will survive in some form or another.

[regal]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

FA20DIT is too tall to fit into the BRZ. You'd have to do significant relocation of parts and then you'd essentially just end up with an FA20 block with lots of custom fabrication to make the DIT model fit into the BRZ.

the FA20DIT block is the same as the FA20 except starter location and, its just pumbing. It would cost Subaru minimal to drop it in, engineering work probably already done.




If Subaru and Toyota split, I would see scion dropped (or 4 door only) and Subaru turbo coupe sales soaring. With the cost differentil there is little point in keeping the FA20 in th BRZ, its minimal. Its really all one big company almost anyway.


The FRS+BZ sales are over 40k this year and I doubt that would have been different had the frs not been offered.




These sales could turn this car into the civic of the 90's (especially with the planned 4 door). Markets/leading companies change. Don't be surprised if Toyota has long term plans to take Subaru past Honda.


The Japanese are making big changes, they have too with multiple million Koreans sold the last 10 years. Those sales were mostly lost to domestics, but to the Japanese they few them as sales they could have had.