Garmin Catalyst?

[Muskoka800]

Does anyone have any experience with the new Garmin Catalyst?
Looks like a good learning tool for us casual track day lappers (in lieu of an actual in car driving coach). Yes, it’s pricey but so would hiring a coach to travel to the event be.
Constructive comments and educated opinions most welcome.
Cheers!

[NoHaveMSG]

@Four_wheel_drifts

[timurrrr]

2nd page of this subforum: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145530

[Muskoka800]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

@Four_wheel_drifts

Thanks! I’ve sent a PM.

[Muskoka800]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

2nd page of this subforum: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145530

Yes, that’s me commenting there. Good pitch.
The Garmin website also has many teaching videos.
I hope to hear from a buyer/user, instead of a seller.

[slowmow]

I've had one for a while now, and its pretty awesome. Evaluating your driving in real-time and giving verbal evaluative feedback ("keep pushing!" = you f'ed up that last corner, "new best!" = you are a driving god, etc.), and providing advice RIGHT before you need it (e.g., "next right, apex later") is something really novel. It leverages what we know about effective learning - providing timely instruction, prompt feedback, and chances for repetition/practice. The developers are making constant improvements, and listening to customers about features that need to be added/tweaked.

It isn't perfect, by any means, but just a few of its features would be enough for me to recommend it: a huge display with delta timer, easy overview of basic data and video for immediate in-car/in-paddock review, the "opportunities" pages that prioritizes the three places where you can make up the most time, and the "segments" pages that make it really easy to see entry/mid-corner/exit speeds for your best driving versus your average driving... plus the aforementioned real-time coaching... pretty amazing.

It is not a detailed data system. It isn't perfect in its instructions. But for an intermediate HPDE driver... someone who has had the basic right seat instruction already and is driving solo most of the time, and trying to continue improving, I'd say this is a WAY better investment than the next set of sticky tires. Perhaps most importantly, it can help the driver become better at real-time self-evaluation... "that corner felt faster..." gets supported by an electronic attaboy. "dang, I blew that..." gets reinforced with a "keep pushing". Having that happen in the car, during a session, rather than in the paddock after a data download to a laptop... pretty cool. It will never be a right seat instructor, or a coach with detailed data, but it is pretty damn good.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Muskoka800

Yes, that’s me commenting there.

Huh, indeed, I didn't notice.
Now I wonder why you created a new thread instead of following up there

Originally Posted by slowmow

... Evaluating your driving in real-time and giving verbal evaluative feedback ..., and providing advice RIGHT before you need it ....

It isn't perfect, by any means, but just a few of its features would be enough for me to recommend it: a huge display with delta timer, easy overview of basic data and video for immediate in-car/in-paddock review, the "opportunities" pages that prioritizes the three places where you can make up the most time, and the "segments" pages that make it really easy to see entry/mid-corner/exit speeds for your best driving versus your average driving... plus the aforementioned real-time coaching... pretty amazing.

... But for an intermediate HPDE driver... someone who has had the basic right seat instruction already and is driving solo most of the time, and trying to continue improving, I'd say this is a WAY better investment than the next set of sticky tires. Perhaps most importantly, it can help the driver become better at real-time self-evaluation... ... rather than in the paddock after a data download to a laptop...

You've brought up some great points!

I've been to an early presentation of Catalyst with Garmin engineers and Ross Bentley.
I was pretty excited at first, but as they explained more and more how it works I got
a feeling like "hey this is all interesting, but also fairly straightforward, can I just learn
to do those same things myself?"

Fast forward to today, I just can't justify $900+ for something that's basically a tablet
that can only do one thing, and a camera. I mean... it's not a Porsche forum.
Many of the cars owned by people on this forum are less than $20k now, and many
of those who track those got salvage title cars for <$15k.

It has some unique features, like real-time feedback.
However, as a software engineer myself, I don't trust my car, health and possibly even
life to any 1st gen "AI" feature. If it tells me to do something at the wrong time, because
either the AI is stupid (look at Tesla self-driving crashes), or because something glitched
and the voice command came just a little too early or too late, I react to it incorrectly and
crash... I'm sure Garmin's legal team wrote a very solid license agreement / waiver.

I've seen an onboard video of someone who I personally know losing control
and having a left-right-left-right-left-right near-spin next to a wall at the track.
In the video, you can see that his Catalyst has already decided that the next corner is
close enough, and said "brake less". That person saved the car and kept going, but
what if the voice tip distracted him just enough to crash?
So personally the voice directions would be off for me on track.

After trying different things, my personal opinion is that the best input you can have
on track is a display with a combination of time delta and speed delta. Where you make
the decision when you have time to look, and when to focus on driving. Learn to read
them, and you'll get instant feedback about every corner.

Review between sessions is awesome, hands down.
AIM definitely dropped the ball that even in 2021 you still need a laptop to review data.
Give us mobile apps that connect to the AIM via Bluetooth!

Catalyst is not the only way to have data review easily accessible.
For ~$150, you can have RaceChrono Pro + external GPS.
For just $50 on top of that, you can add OBDLink MX+ and read data from the
CAN bus, and you can't do that with a Catalyst.
RaceChrono works great. Sure, not professional-level software like AIM, and not as
pretty as the UI of the Catalyst, but does the job really well. The developer of RaceChrono
also regularly improves the app, and is very responsive to user feedback on his forum.

Best part? I have all the data from all my track days always with me.
Someone asks me what's my speed in turn 123 at ButtonSecaThunderoma?
Here, see my data.

Throw in a second hand GoPro, and you get pretty close to what Catalyst can do, for
a fraction of its cost.

In my experience as an intermediate track driver, the most important data channel
to look at to improve your skill is the brake pedal pressure. You can have it with
AIM and you can have it for the cheap with RaceChrono + OBDLink MX+, and
currently there's no way to have it with Catalyst, even though it costs as much as
AIM + RaceChrono + accessories combined.

The best part about the Catalyst is that it's all in one. Porsche drivers and iPhone users
surely love that! You set up the camera and the mount once, and everything just works
(hopefully?). With RaceChrono, GPS and GoPro you have to charge and start three devices.
Too much of a hassle for some people, but is it worth paying ~$600 extra for having
just a few less button presses per session? Everyone has their own answer.
Another component to that is the ease of exporting videos, but again I feel like "one click"
videos are crippled if they don't have pedal inputs visualized.

Bottom line is, I personally figured that a better investment for the ~$600 price difference
between these two options is to learn how to analyze data myself, getting inspired by
some of the approaches that you can pick up from the Catalyst. Defining correct sectors,
looking at your opt lap, looking at top 3 sectors and the variation, etc.
At the end of the day, IMO, it's the combination of intimate understanding of your data
with seat time that are the necessary ingredients for perfecting your skill.
The AIs of today can only give you so much.

P.s.
If you want to play with AI-drive track data analysis, check out Track Titan for Assetto Corsa.
It's in a free beta right now by the way You can also learn some data analysis tricks
from their website. They do have the brake pressure data and can even tell how much
grip each tire is generating, to diagnose understeer, oversteer, and underutilization of grip.
You can also find a lot of free resources about how to learn data analysis,
e.g. there's a great FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/BeginAcqData
which helped me find a couple of seconds off my previous PBs by helping me
uncover issues with my technique myself through data that would take dozens
of track days (if not more) to fix through just seat time.

[blsfrs]

In my experience as an intermediate track driver, the most important data channel
to look at to improve your skill is the brake pedal pressure. You can have it with
AIM and you can have it for the cheap with RaceChrono + OBDLink MX+, and
currently there's no way to have it with Catalyst, even though it costs as much as
AIM + RaceChrono + accessories combined.


I'm a bit of a technophobe (read "old fart") but I'm always willing to learn new things. A step-by-step DIY video of your Racechrono + those other thingies would be awesome.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

I'm a bit of a technophobe (read "old fart") but I'm always willing to learn new things.

Good attitude

Originally Posted by blsfrs

A step-by-step DIY video of your Racechrono + those other thingies would be awesome.

Yeah, I was thinking I should record a beginner-friendly video on how
to set up RaceChrono for a while, but life has been very busy lately.
Maybe in a few months! Thanks for the reminder.

I've already shared some pieces of the puzzle on
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143833
but admittedly it's only about half of the pieces of that puzzle...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Good attitude



Yeah, I was thinking I should record a beginner-friendly video on how
to set up RaceChrono for a while, but life has been very busy lately.
Maybe in a few months! Thanks for the reminder.

I've already shared some pieces of the puzzle on
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143833
but admittedly it's only about half of the pieces of that puzzle...

I'd appreciate it. I am tired of having to connect my solo to my laptop to look at data. Plus the battery issues I have had with my solo are getting annoying to deal with. I was gifted an iPad so I was thinking about going the racechrono route and just adding external GPS.

[Four_wheel_drifts]

This is part of the pm conversation I had with the OP:

Most would say it wasn’t worth it for me since I already have an aim solo 2 dl. But it was a simple decision for me. Buying the Garmin was much cheaper than buying Aim’s smarty cam, which is really needed to more easily analyze Aim data.

Otherwise it’s like looking like the data streams from a Matrix movie.

I also didn’t want to take a laptop to the track to analyze data between sessions. Realistically, every event I’m teaching as well, so only have less than 20 minutes each hour to check tire pressures, hit the restroom, etc. So that wasn’t going to happen.

Biggest shortcoming of the Garmin is that it can only give you advice based on your best segments. I’m very consistent lap to lap. So very few tips available for Garmin to feed me. I could slap it into a much faster driver’s car than me at each track. Then it would have pointers for me.

But having the video instantly at session end with a video display built in? Priceless. The ability to look at opportunities right away is very nice, too.

One tip: I kept checking Amazon for an unboxed, returned, like new, etc. I was patient enough and held out until Amazon had one for a price I was comfortable with.

Next season, I’ll run my Aim solo 2 DL and the Garmin catalyst. But I’m hoping Garmin steps up and starts adding more functionality like Bluetooth obd2 and firmware upgrades.