All-New 2022 Subaru BRZ Makes Global Debut

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

Jalopnik said it. The point is, pretty much every car has a turbo and significant power these days and that trend will continue. A year before introduction this car is a little short on power and that will get worse relative to the rest of the industry as it ages. I'll be the first to say lots of cars are overpowered these days (Camrys with 300+!!) but I struggle to understand how the designers and especially the marketing team felt comfortable going with this engine. This model has famously low sales numbers and the only criticism has been lack of power. It's easy to see what could be changed to sell more. You guys keep mentioning the price but industry wide I don't see much concern about sticking to price points. Prices keep ballooning and consumers keep paying, with the help of leases and loans. This vehicle development team just seems to be in another dimension if they are that worried about adding 3 grand to the price and they don't think 0-60 times and kick-in-the-pants test drives sell cars.

So you have no source basically; Jalopnik may as well be Kotaku at this point.

So what you're telling me is, a car like the ND Miata needs to have a turbo because everything else does. Everything is about power, everything is about 0-60, if you don't have those, your car won't sell.

You don't understand this car one bit, and comparing imaginary specs of the 2022 base civic solidifies that. Imagine the day a base civic is faster than an Si.

[Lantanafrs2]

The 86 is the entry model in Toyotas sports car lineup. Subarus have enough problems as it is . Turbo is the last thing this car needs.

[Lelandjt]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

So you have no source basically; Jalopnik may as well be Kotaku at this point.

So what you're telling me is, a car like the ND Miata needs to have a turbo because everything else does. Everything is about power, everything is about 0-60, if you don't have those, your car won't sell.

You don't understand this car one bit, and comparing imaginary specs of the 2022 base civic solidifies that. Imagine the day a base civic is faster than an Si.

I had a source, you don't like it. How correct they are will be determined.
The BRZ is 500lbs heavier than the Miata and larger with much more cargo space. Also, not a convertible. I don't see it as "like a Miata".

And the sales numbers speak for themselves. You don't think the BRZ would sell better with more power, even if it tacked a couple grand to the price?

I get what they're going for with this car but it doesn't quite work for me (cuz of altitude) and I'm amazed that management didn't look at sales numbers and the rest of the market and intervene saying, "We need more power to increase sales." That's exactly what they did with the Crosstrek. Note, they didn't force the turbo on Crosstrek buyers. They added it as a second engine choice. Does it not seem like the people making BRZ decisions are in a different building, company, universe than the people making Crosstrek decisions?

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

I had a source, you don't like it. How correct they are will be determined.
The BRZ is 500lbs heavier than the Miata and larger with much more cargo space. Also, not a convertible. I don't see it as "like a Miata".

And the sales numbers speak for themselves. You don't think the BRZ would sell better with more power, even if it tacked a couple grand to the price?

I get what they're going for with this car but it doesn't quite work for me (cuz of altitude) and I'm amazed that management didn't look at sales numbers and the rest of the market and intervene saying, "We need more power to increase sales." That's exactly what they did with the Crosstrek. Note, they didn't force the turbo on Crosstrek buyers. They added it as a second engine choice. Does it not seem like the people making BRZ decisions are in a different building, company, universe than the people making Crosstrek decisions?

They pretty much are

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

Whelp, since turboing a 13.5:1 engine is sketchy

Turboing a High compression car used to be sketchy. You had a fixed lift valve train, variable duration at best, pretty imprecise port injection and a slow 8bit ecu. We used to have to richen the mix to ensure we didn’t pre-ignite because injection systems just weren’t that precise.

Now we have super fast 64bit ECUs with literally over 10X more computing power than before. They can react ridiculously fast to changing engine conditions. We have variable lift AND duration which we can use to alter the CR on the fly. We have incredibly precise direct injection systems that can have the car run within half a percent of a stoichiometric reagent mix (14.7/1 air/gasoline).

It’s a whole different ballgame now. With modern ECUs, valvetrains, and injection systems you can force feed a high compression engine, as long as you’re not tuning them like we’re in the 90s.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

I had a source, you don't like it. How correct they are will be determined.
The BRZ is 500lbs heavier than the Miata and larger with much more cargo space. Also, not a convertible. I don't see it as "like a Miata".

And the sales numbers speak for themselves. You don't think the BRZ would sell better with more power, even if it tacked a couple grand to the price?

I get what they're going for with this car but it doesn't quite work for me (cuz of altitude) and I'm amazed that management didn't look at sales numbers and the rest of the market and intervene saying, "We need more power to increase sales." That's exactly what they did with the Crosstrek. Note, they didn't force the turbo on Crosstrek buyers. They added it as a second engine choice. Does it not seem like the people making BRZ decisions are in a different building, company, universe than the people making Crosstrek decisions?

you give the example of the Crosstrek, did they not do the same thing here? If they offered the old 2.0 alongside the 2.4, would that make you feel better?

more power really won't mean crap, it would still be slower than the muscle cars in a straight line and even if they kept the pricing the same, for a monthly payment which is I'm sure how most folks pay their cars, it doesn't take much more to get something with 8 cylinders..

as for sales, think toyota was relatively happy..yes it slowed down significantly but overall the twins have easily become their best selling sports car ever..to me they checked off all the complaint boxes for updating the first gen while staying with original intent of being NA..

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

The 86 is the entry model in Toyotas sports car lineup. Subarus have enough problems as it is . Turbo is the last thing this car needs.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

I had a source, you don't like it. How correct they are will be determined.
The BRZ is 500lbs heavier than the Miata and larger with much more cargo space. Also, not a convertible. I don't see it as "like a Miata".

And the sales numbers speak for themselves. You don't think the BRZ would sell better with more power, even if it tacked a couple grand to the price?

I get what they're going for with this car but it doesn't quite work for me (cuz of altitude) and I'm amazed that management didn't look at sales numbers and the rest of the market and intervene saying, "We need more power to increase sales." That's exactly what they did with the Crosstrek. Note, they didn't force the turbo on Crosstrek buyers. They added it as a second engine choice. Does it not seem like the people making BRZ decisions are in a different building, company, universe than the people making Crosstrek decisions?

You don't see it as much like a Miata because you don't even know what the car is. You seem to think adding power is going to make the car sell better, you and every deadbeat car journalist say the same thing. Why doesn't the 370z sell like hot cakes then? It's got a good ol' v6 with 300 something plus HP. What about the Genesis coupes, remember those? 3.8l V6 again a good bit over 300, spoiler alert, they don't even exist anymore. jUsT aDd PoWeR.

If they ever intended to sell more BRZ/86 than what they have, it'd have 4 doors, more clearance, AWD, and likely be placed in the crossover segment. Yet, with their current sales, they found it feasible to create a second gen.

I'm going to trust Subaru/Toyota on this one, not someone on a internet forum that can't even cite where they got 2022 base civic being more than 228hp besides saying "Jalopnik"..

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

The BRZ is 500lbs heavier than the Miata and larger with much more cargo space. Also, not a convertible. I don't see it as "like a Miata".

In the small and light RWD sports car segment, you don't have the luxury of direct competitors. If you split that segment like you do other segments it would be a one-car-per-segment. Lightweight convertible? Miata. Lightweight 2+2 coupe? Twins. Not so lightweight NA coupe? 370z. Not so lightweight turbo coupe? 2.0 Supra.
Splitting by rough price point is probably the best way to segment the market, hence the Miata, Twins and 370z are typically lumped together, despite being pretty different cars.
I actually cross-shopped the Miata and the BRZ, and was seriously considering a 370z in the comparison as well. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

And the sales numbers speak for themselves. You don't think the BRZ would sell better with more power, even if it tacked a couple grand to the price?

Sure. If it had bigger rear seats and 2 extra doors it would have sold even more. But that is not what this car is about. You could say the same for the Miata, but Mazda are very consistent in what they offer for 4 generations and 30 years (except for the limited run Mazdaspeed Miata).
Granted, high altitude does bring out the worst in NA engines, but that's a pretty tiny market. Would you expect the car to come stock with studded winter tires to cater for Finland's ice racers?

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

I had a source, you don't like it. How correct they are will be determined.
The BRZ is 500lbs heavier than the Miata and larger with much more cargo space. Also, not a convertible. I don't see it as "like a Miata".

And the sales numbers speak for themselves. You don't think the BRZ would sell better with more power, even if it tacked a couple grand to the price?

I get what they're going for with this car but it doesn't quite work for me (cuz of altitude) and I'm amazed that management didn't look at sales numbers and the rest of the market and intervene saying, "We need more power to increase sales." That's exactly what they did with the Crosstrek. Note, they didn't force the turbo on Crosstrek buyers. They added it as a second engine choice. Does it not seem like the people making BRZ decisions are in a different building, company, universe than the people making Crosstrek decisions?

The only people whining about power are the car reviewers (ALWAYS want more power, and always drive those super expensive cars, luxury cars, sports cars that regular folk cant afford) and the "MOAR POWERS" crowd (i need at least 300hp otherwise its super unsafe driving!)

[anticubus]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

turboing a 13.5:1 engine is sketchy

Tell that to Mazda, they're literally building engines designed to work on the very edge of knocking with boosted 14:1 or higher compression ratios in the Skyactiv-X engines. As @Yoshoobaroo said, modern electronic controls have made it possible to reliably turbo pretty much anything so long as you have good gas and a good knock sensor.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

II actually cross-shopped the Miata and the BRZ, and was seriously considering a 370z in the comparison as well. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

IMO, the topic of cross shopping is overrated. When I bought the FRS my list included the FRS, a ZR1 Camaro, CTS-V Coupe and Wagon, a couple of truck models, and a full frame SUV.

Maybe I cross shop differently than other folks though.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

The only people whining about power are the car reviewers (ALWAYS want more power, and always drive those super expensive cars, luxury cars, sports cars that regular folk cant afford) and the "MOAR POWERS" crowd (i need at least 300hp otherwise its super unsafe driving!)

Don't forget the crowd that literally has said they cannot daily drive the 86 because it doesn't have enough power.... I can't merge into traffic waaahhh, I was in 5th gear going 60kmh and stabbed the gas and almost died trying to merge, waahhhhh.

Can I have: 'what is a downshift for 100 points please'

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Don't forget the crowd that literally has said they cannot daily drive the 86 because it doesn't have enough power.... I can't merge into traffic waaahhh, I was in 5th gear going 60kmh and stabbed the gas and almost died trying to merge, waahhhhh.

Can I have: 'what is a downshift for 100 points please'

Downshift? preposterous!
Next thing you'll tell me is that a downshift can be done more than once!