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Old 11-18-2013, 06:09 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
BTW here is the video that everyone's been waiting for. I didn't edit it, so it's 17 minutes long but the crash is just after 13 minutes in.


I assume you posted this video seeking comments. If not, feel free to smack me upside the head.

About your video of your "Incident at Turn 10":

It is difficult to discern things from a wide-angle lens placed low like yours. However, for what it's worth, it appears, I say APPEARS, and I could certainly be wrong, that you:

1) Turned in too early,

2) Missed ANY apex by feet,

3) Tried to "pinch it in" out towards the exit in an ill-advised attempt to save it, and…

4) Now, you know what happens when you do those things.


At least you did not appear to compound the problem yet further by braking too late and charging in WAY too fast. How do I know this? Because if you had, you'd have slid helplessly off the outside, regardless of what you'd done with the steering. But, instead, you were able to pinch it in "successfully" before even reaching the outer right side of the asphalt … and you pirouetted to the left and zoomed over to the left side to kill some precious tire bundles … to your dismay and expense.

BTW, was your car trying to set the long, dry grass alight? Was that the cause of the smoke and subsequent fire extinguisher bill?

So, what might you have done to save this? Could you?

Sure.

I suggest that after making mistakes #1 and #2, that you slow (give up the corner, this is not going to be your quick time for the day), unwind the steering, and allow the car to just slide wide. Maybe you'll just put two wheels in the dirt off to the right, and maybe you'll sail clean off the track to the right, but at least on this corner, you won't hit anything. Just "pretend" the track is about 10+ feet wider at corner exit and drive a "normal line" out to your "new" track-out point out in the grass, and drive on down towards the next corner working your way off the grass and back onto the pavement. The thing is to FIRST GET THE CAR STRAIGHT. Never mind that you're on the grass. Yes, I know you're not supposed to be on the grass, but hey, it beats slamming into the tire wall on the left, doesn't it?

Keep it STRAIGHT, parallel to the track, and as you slow, GENTLY ease it to the left and back onto the asphalt a little bit at a time.

Do NOT turn abruptly left to get back onto the track. You'll just spin in front of everybody and they'll nail you in your driver's door. You won't like it.

Around the time you missed your apex, you should have realized, "Sumbitch! I'm going OFF!" And then calmly DRIVEN off, letting the car have its head, onto the grass on the outside, and NOT TURNING, except to gently bring your car back to parallel with the track. Then slow down further, and ease it back onto the track.

Now, there is something else that I might do in the same or similar circumstances. It requires quick assessment and reactions. I would completely straighten my steering and drive a STRAIGHT LINE out towards the right edge of the track, while I STAND ON THE BRAKES, knocking 10-15+ mph off my speed. Then I would again turn left (in this case) and mosey on down to Oak Tree corner. You must be quick and have a good sense of balance, because you don't want to slam on the brakes on this teensy mini-straight you've just created mid-corner, until the car is flat, balanced, and going straight and not still turning left. Basically, I will have made TWO corners out of this. It would not be "elegant," but it would bail me out of trouble. Many drivers just won't be quick enough to execute this "two-corners connected by a mini-straight" technique.

Finally, one last point. If I were driving a car WITHOUT ABS, and if things had gotten so far out of hand that I could see that I was embarking on a slide that would take me off track to the left, off the road, and into the tire wall … then I would instantly LOCK UP ALL FOUR WHEELS and de-clutch. ("Both feet in" rule.) (One must be quick to make this work successfully.)

I would then just slide harmlessly straight down the road towards the next turn. I might well be spinning like a top, but most important, I would NOT BE TURNING. A locked wheel does not generate any turning force.

ABS deprives me of this all-important bailout tool. I do not like ABS. I'll take my chances threshold braking on my own, thank you. Call me old-fashioned. I am old, after all.

Oh, and don't forget to stop at the pits and change into a fresh pair of Depends.

Now, you may well ask, "Why should I learn how to drive off of the road?"

And the answer is, "Because you're bound to make these same mistakes again…"

And again and again and again. Everybody does. It would be good to have a better outcome than you experienced this time, right?

The human propensity for wanting to turn in too early is boundless. And fully half the people I watch just never seem to learn to stop.

Disclaimer: YMMV

I hope this instruction has been worth more than you paid for it.
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:37 AM   #72
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Thanks for that post, lots of valuable information and I agree with almost all of it. However:

Quote:
Around the time you missed your apex, you should have realized, "Sumbitch! I'm going OFF!" And then calmly DRIVEN off, letting the car have its head, onto the grass on the outside, and NOT TURNING, except to gently bring your car back to parallel with the track. Then slow down further, and ease it back onto the track.
I never thought (nor did the car feel like) I had a chance of sliding off on the right side. The car had plenty of grip on the front and I wasn't experiencing any understeer. One thing for certain is that I did not track out enough and use all of the track at my disposal.

Quote:
BTW, was your car trying to set the long, dry grass alight? Was that the cause of the smoke and subsequent fire extinguisher bill?
Sadly there was no "trying". My brakes (and possibly exhaust) did catch the grass on fire and caused further significant damage to my car.





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Old 11-18-2013, 09:07 AM   #73
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Yeah, the aftermath of the crash when the car is just sitting there and then you begin to see smoke reminds me of that video where the Korean (I think) guy pulled off the track into the grass and then his car slowly burned to the ground when the grass ignited.

You were fortunate that the car took that long flat slide to the tire wall. I always fear getting sideways and having the tires dig in causing a roll.

Thanks for posting the video and once again glad that you and the instructor made it out OK.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:34 AM   #74
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I was at VIR with WolfpackS2K for this event. In fact, he was very gracious and reached out to me via this forum and offered to caravan up together since this was my very first HPDE and first time going to VIR. Great guy, who answered a lot of noob questions from me and gave me some great advice that helped me prepare for the event.

I must also say that when something like this happens at the track, it is similar to seeing a wreck on the highway. Folks of course are concerned about the driver's/passenger's safety first, but out of morbid curiosity everyone wants to see the "carnage" of the car. Once the car had been towed back to our paddock area, there were crowds of folks coming over to gawk and take pictures.

Wolfpack was much more patient and calm/collected than I would've been in the same situation. He let folks look, even answered their questions. And then he was the ultimate boss, and took the car BACK out on the track!

Anyway, just want to throw this out there: to all of us that go to the track....be respectful, and supportive when an accident happens. Please don't post pics on an internet forum until you get permission from the driver/owner. (Maybe this happened in this case, I'm not sure.)

While I hate that this happened, I'm glad Wolfpack is okay; and I know he'll learn from this and be back on the track. Good luck with repairs and keep us all updated on where you go from here!
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:11 AM   #75
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Thanks for the kind words Neal.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:18 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Thanks for the kind words Neal.
You are the man dude. In the interest of full disclosure: I spun off the track in my next to last lap of my very first session on that day; this was coming at the end of the straight into turn #1. I wound up in the grass on the right side of the track. I nearly shit my pants. Thankfully, I was able to put both feet in and get the car to stop and didn't hit the wall or anyone else. And to be honest, back in the paddock afterwards, there was a point when I seriously considered packing up and going home. But I stuck it out and finished the day...and tried to learn from that mistake.

Witnessing what happened to you Patrick and the way you handled all of that....inspiring to say the least.

Oh, and next time, I will be purchasing track insurance.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:33 AM   #77
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Oh, and next time, I will be purchasing track insurance.
Ditto that for me, too.

Pat, I don't believe we've ever met personally, but we've collaborated enough online to where something like this really gets to me, especially considering I solicited your advice before buying my BRZ. Hope everything works out with the insurance. Any chance you decide to stay with this platform if they cut you a check?
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:43 AM   #78
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Thanks guys.

^I dunno to be honest. If they cut me a check I wouldn't want another stock power level BRZ, and really don't feel like adding FI to one again (money doesn't grow on trees). Might go a different route.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:50 PM   #79
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And to be honest, back in the paddock afterwards, there was a point when I seriously considered packing up and going home. But I stuck it out and finished the day...and tried to learn from that mistake.
Yep, I know the feels. Good on you for keeping your head together and getting back on track.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:18 PM   #80
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Much respect for heading back on track afterwards.

Good man.
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:09 PM   #81
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Yeah, the aftermath of the crash when the car is just sitting there and then you begin to see smoke reminds me of that video where the Korean (I think) guy pulled off the track into the grass and then his car slowly burned to the ground when the grass ignited.
I remember that video.

Yet another lesson here: If my engine can be restarted (if necessary) after an off-track excursion like that, move the car off the grass. I don't care if it rips off the front air dam or any other dangling bits and pieces; that's better than watching my car being engulfed in flames.

Get my car moved to a non-flammable surface.

In fact, our Subaru owners's manual even warns us of parking on the grass for this very reason. The exhaust components can get very hot, more than hot enough to ignite grass if it gets too close.
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:29 PM   #82
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Thanks for that post, lots of valuable information and I agree with almost all of it. However:

I never thought (nor did the car feel like) I had a chance of sliding off on the right side. The car had plenty of grip on the front and I wasn't experiencing any understeer. One thing for certain is that I did not track out enough and use all of the track at my disposal.

Do you have in-car video footage as well? That would help, too.

You effectively turned the latter portion of that turn into a decreasing radius turn, it appears (again, it's hard to be sure from that low, external camera angle). You applied more steering lock, began to slide, the car began going downhill and went light on you, and you became a passenger along for the ride, unable to catch it.

Where you were pinching it in at turn exit, i.e. applying more steering lock, you needed to be reducing steering lock, turning the wheel clockwise to the straight ahead position. Had you done that -- on the line you'd chosen when turning in too early -- you may well have dropped two or even four wheels off the right side.

It would have been inconsequential from what I can see. At worst, you'd have been picking some grass out of your wheels and radiator back in the pits.

This is probably the single most common mistake that inexperienced (and even experienced) drivers make. Turn in too early and that means you're going to be running wide at corner exit. Sometimes one may be able to get away with pinching it in at corner exit, but oftentimes not. Do that in Turn 10 on this track and you'll likely visit the left side tire wall.

Again, I cannot overemphasize this, you needed to allow the car to run wide on its "natural line." I urge you to remember to do that next time.

The only time you want to pinch it in, is when you're about to hit something hard, and it's the only viable option. Those corners are best taken more cautiously with a little extra in reserve.

Hope this helps, both you and others.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:57 PM   #83
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I couldn't tell that much from the video but @Porsche makes some good points in general. And I'm glad @WolfpackS2k is open to sharing and discussing this crash because its a learning opportunity for all. Just wanted to add, the dialogue about letting the car run wide at exit rather than "pinch" the radius is one that I think many instructors and events do not address thoroughly. Frankly I think people need education in dropping 2 or 4 wheels and safely returning. Otherwise it's a scary experience that first time it happens. I dunno, I'm no expert, just food for thought.
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:12 PM   #84
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Glad you came out ok! Sad you lost your brz, but at least you were wise to get the track insurance! Best of luck bud!
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