follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 2nd Gens: GR86 and BRZ > GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86)

GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-20-2022, 02:52 PM   #43
CincyJohn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Drives: 2022 MT Neptune GR86 Prem.
Location: Cincinnati, OHIO
Posts: 398
Thanks: 107
Thanked 257 Times in 166 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decep View Post
I think people just equate hydraulic steering to more steering feel in their head, when it isn't necessarily the case.
Why in the world would anyone think that?? Look, I have no knowledge/experience with hydraulic steering at all. But as an engineer, just hearing "hydraulic" - as opposed to some sort of direct linkage or even drive-by-wire - makes me think slow and lag.
CincyJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2022, 03:09 PM   #44
Ernest72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 16 Silver BRZ, 04 Silver WRX wagon
Location: Rockland county, NY
Posts: 1,279
Thanks: 144
Thanked 699 Times in 400 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyJohn View Post
Why in the world would anyone think that?? Look, I have no knowledge/experience with hydraulic steering at all. But as an engineer, just hearing "hydraulic" - as opposed to some sort of direct linkage or even drive-by-wire - makes me think slow and lag.
It’s so subjective. Ratios can make a difference too. Some older cars you might feel more but those larger ratios make you think it does not steer as well. Plus tires can make the feel different as well as bushings, etc. Lots of variables.
Ernest72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2022, 03:28 PM   #45
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,036
Thanks: 990
Thanked 3,221 Times in 1,715 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decep View Post
Plus i was still in my late teens and it was just easier to enjoy shit back then.


But also
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Decep (05-20-2022)
Old 05-20-2022, 04:39 PM   #46
Stonehorsw
Senior Member
 
Stonehorsw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Drives: 18 Brz (Sold) / 22 BRZ
Location: Michigan
Posts: 523
Thanks: 827
Thanked 346 Times in 204 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyJohn View Post
Why in the world would anyone think that?? Look, I have no knowledge/experience with hydraulic steering at all. But as an engineer, just hearing "hydraulic" - as opposed to some sort of direct linkage or even drive-by-wire - makes me think slow and lag.
Because the link between the driver and the road can be more direct than a system with an electric motor assistant.

Hydraulic steering, when well designed, is very good and with a good feedback.
The hydraulic system is just a set of valves that opens when a certain angle is reached, creating an assistance to reduce the effort to turn the wheel. It is still direct linkage.
Stonehorsw is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stonehorsw For This Useful Post:
CincyJohn (05-21-2022)
Old 05-20-2022, 04:45 PM   #47
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,866
Thanks: 2,622
Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,851 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyJohn View Post
Why in the world would anyone think that?? Look, I have no knowledge/experience with hydraulic steering at all. But as an engineer, just hearing "hydraulic" - as opposed to some sort of direct linkage or even drive-by-wire - makes me think slow and lag.

It’s Hydraulic ASSIST, not hydraulic actuation. It’s still a mechanical rack and pinion.

The reason people equate electric assist with poor feedback is because the early implementations of electric steering in cars had really poor feedback. It took a few generations to get it right. Still, the last hydraulic assist systems generally had better feel and MUCH better weight to them than even today’s electric racks.
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Yoshoobaroo For This Useful Post:
CincyJohn (05-21-2022), ZDan (05-20-2022)
Old 05-20-2022, 04:46 PM   #48
JRitt
 
JRitt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: 2012 BRZ Premium WRB 6MT
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 663
Thanks: 206
Thanked 1,388 Times in 368 Posts
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
I agree with others that this is a completely relevant comparison. The 987 Boxster/Cayman and the new twins are extremely similar in many ways and I can see how anyone looking for a fun sportscar would cross-shop them.

I currently own a 2008 987.1 Base Boxster LE (orange) and I love it. Also in my current and past stable are 997.2 C2S, '91 NSX, Gen.1 BRZ, S2000, MR2 Spyder, C5Z06, C6 with 403 stroker, 350Z, six different NA and NB Miatae, DC2 Integra Type R, and a bunch of others that didn't just pop into my head. :p

The 987.1 Boxster is one of my favorite street cars I've ever owned (out of about 50 different sportscars in the past 20 years). It is fantastic on back roads for these reasons:
1. Powerful enough to get out of its own way, but not so fast that it will get you into major trouble. Way more fun around town than an S2000 due to torques.

2. Engine note- Factory PSE (Porsche Sports Exhaust) is glorious on this thing (and can go to quiet mode), and the engine is sitting right behind your head. You also hear the valves tapping, etc...a lovely mechanical symphony on every drive.

3. Outstanding gearing- 2nd gear is 4,000 RPM at 40mph and tops out around 60mph. Third gear goes to around 90mph. This gearing is excellent for 2nd and their gear twisties, and you're constantly in the 4,000+ RPM range and winding the engine out to hear it sing. You also have to shift quite a bit, which keeps you engaged.

4. Mid-engine- The car just pivots around you, and it's a feeling that's hard to replicate with a front engine car (even a really, really well balanced one). I've owned numerous cars with both layouts, and mid-engine just feels unique.

5. Convertible- Top down driving is outstanding on a nice day. It adds to the sensory experience.

6. Stock suspension offers fairly neutral handling and reasonable comfort...not so stiff over bad roads that it shakes your teeth out.
7. Brakes are solid from the factory with good feel, and I never worry about fading them on the road.

8. I think the steering feel is pretty darn good with excellent feedback. The steering wheel is a bit large for my taste though.
9. Reasonable storage with the front and rear trunks- I've taken it on a few 8-10 hour road trips and it has been awesome.

10. Chicks dig it. Just kidding. But seriously, mine does garner a lot of attention because it is a bright orange punch in the eye! :p

The 987.1 base car with the 5 speed is a 'hero car' to me. You can pound around in it and it just feels like you can get away with doing stupid ish without it biting you. It just flows down the road through twisties. It reminds me very much of my old NA Miata in that regard. It is a wonderful sportscar and I don't have very few minor faults to pick with it. I drove a customer's 718 Boxster Spyder for a day, and I didn't like it nearly as much. The gearing is ridiculously tall, it has too much power to ring out on the street, it had auto engine shutoff (annoying as hell in a sportscar), and I was afraid to damage it because it was hideously expensive.

With all the above said, I think the new twins are fantastic! Over the past few months we've had both the new GR86 and BRZ in to our shop to be measured for AP Racing brake kits. They are both outstanding, but I prefer the styling and handling of the GR86 if I had to choose.

I believe the GR86 provides a huge portion of the same experience my Boxster provides. My coworkers were laughing at me because I was fawning all over the GR86 when it was here. I think it is one of the best, most pure sportscars I've ever driven. The fact that it is modern and being built today is shocking to me. It gives the old-school, mechanical driving experience I love, laced with all the modern tech. The car handles phenomenally, and they fixed the engine this time around. The engine lives up to the rest of the car, unlike the first Gen. engine. If I was going to own only one fixed roof sportscar and I didn't want to spend a fortune, the GR86 is pretty much at the top of my list next to a 987 Base Cayman.

The GR86 is lighter, which I love. The GR86 also has a big advantage with the rear +2 for kids (or dwarfs). My youngest loves having her own little bucket seat in the back of my 997. I'd be shocked if the GR86 doesn't prove to be more reliable long-term than any Porsche. It's also going to cost a lot less to repair, and aftermarket upgrades are going to be far cheaper. The GR86 is a bit more spacious on the inside as well. In fact, I had tons of space. I'm 6'3 1/2" and I am totally maxed out in the Boxster on space. I fit horribly into the S2000 with that damn fixed steering wheel, and I had to remove the door handle and dead pedal in all my Miatae to get comfy.

In summary...I have owned a lot of sportscars. I have also driven a huge variety of customer cars and my friends' cars...I'm talking everything from crap-can racers to McLarens. IMO, the GR86 is one of the greatest sportscars available right now. The fact that it costs $30k is incredible. It is an immense bargain, and I will own one at some point. If I decided to sell off my fleet right now and could have only one, it would be right at the top of my list. The two other cars that most interest me right now are the Lotus Emira and the Lotus Evora GT.

My Boxster, which I adore.


__________________
Jeff Ritter|Mgr.- High Performance Division
P704.824.6030 | F704-824-7300
www.essexparts.com

JRitt is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to JRitt For This Useful Post:
Ash_89 (05-22-2022), CincyJohn (05-21-2022), Dzmitry (05-24-2022), JesseG (05-31-2022), LRNAD90 (05-23-2022), nikitopo (05-26-2022), PBR (05-22-2022), Sport-Tech (05-26-2022)
Old 05-20-2022, 04:48 PM   #49
Decep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Drives: 2013 FR-S Series 10
Location: CA
Posts: 979
Thanks: 136
Thanked 434 Times in 290 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Never seen that color before, they're always silver around here. Nice car!
__________________
2013 FR-S 10 Series ~70k
RCE SS-1 Coilovers
Corsa Catback
Edelbrock Supercharger installed @ 50K
Decep is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Decep For This Useful Post:
JRitt (06-02-2022)
Old 05-20-2022, 05:13 PM   #50
Arthur-A
Senior Member
 
Arthur-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Drives: 1992 240SX & 2020 BMW 330i
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 173
Thanks: 120
Thanked 103 Times in 66 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I am yet to see a decent electric power steering. Every car with EPS that I ever driven had terrible steering feel.
Maybe Nissan with their new Z did it right, who knows.
Arthur-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2022, 06:13 PM   #51
86-75309
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Drives: 2020 Toyota 86 Hakone Edition
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 244
Thanks: 32
Thanked 231 Times in 103 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
My 2008 Base Boxster LE is #25
Attached Images
 
86-75309 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 86-75309 For This Useful Post:
JRitt (05-23-2022)
Old 05-21-2022, 09:40 AM   #52
Stonehorsw
Senior Member
 
Stonehorsw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Drives: 18 Brz (Sold) / 22 BRZ
Location: Michigan
Posts: 523
Thanks: 827
Thanked 346 Times in 204 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyJohn View Post
Why in the world would anyone think that?? Look, I have no knowledge/experience with hydraulic steering at all. But as an engineer, just hearing "hydraulic" - as opposed to some sort of direct linkage or even drive-by-wire - makes me think slow and lag.
See below a link for LaFerrari EPHS. This is a hydraulic assisted steering rack with an electrical hydraulic pump to reduce parasitic loses from ZF/TRW

https://www.gardnerweb.com/articles/...teering-system
Stonehorsw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2022, 09:52 AM   #53
andys_garage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Drives: 2022 GR86 Premium Track bRed
Location: Ohio
Posts: 31
Thanks: 11
Thanked 19 Times in 10 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRitt View Post
I agree with others that this is a completely relevant comparison. The 987 Boxster/Cayman and the new twins are extremely similar in many ways and I can see how anyone looking for a fun sportscar would cross-shop them.

I currently own a 2008 987.1 Base Boxster LE (orange) and I love it. Also in my current and past stable are 997.2 C2S, '91 NSX, Gen.1 BRZ, S2000, MR2 Spyder, C5Z06, C6 with 403 stroker, 350Z, six different NA and NB Miatae, DC2 Integra Type R, and a bunch of others that didn't just pop into my head. :p

The 987.1 Boxster is one of my favorite street cars I've ever owned (out of about 50 different sportscars in the past 20 years). It is fantastic on back roads for these reasons:
1. Powerful enough to get out of its own way, but not so fast that it will get you into major trouble. Way more fun around town than an S2000 due to torques.

2. Engine note- Factory PSE (Porsche Sports Exhaust) is glorious on this thing (and can go to quiet mode), and the engine is sitting right behind your head. You also hear the valves tapping, etc...a lovely mechanical symphony on every drive.

3. Outstanding gearing- 2nd gear is 4,000 RPM at 40mph and tops out around 60mph. Third gear goes to around 90mph. This gearing is excellent for 2nd and their gear twisties, and you're constantly in the 4,000+ RPM range and winding the engine out to hear it sing. You also have to shift quite a bit, which keeps you engaged.

4. Mid-engine- The car just pivots around you, and it's a feeling that's hard to replicate with a front engine car (even a really, really well balanced one). I've owned numerous cars with both layouts, and mid-engine just feels unique.

5. Convertible- Top down driving is outstanding on a nice day. It adds to the sensory experience.

6. Stock suspension offers fairly neutral handling and reasonable comfort...not so stiff over bad roads that it shakes your teeth out.
7. Brakes are solid from the factory with good feel, and I never worry about fading them on the road.

8. I think the steering feel is pretty darn good with excellent feedback. The steering wheel is a bit large for my taste though.
9. Reasonable storage with the front and rear trunks- I've taken it on a few 8-10 hour road trips and it has been awesome.

10. Chicks dig it. Just kidding. But seriously, mine does garner a lot of attention because it is a bright orange punch in the eye! :p

The 987.1 base car with the 5 speed is a 'hero car' to me. You can pound around in it and it just feels like you can get away with doing stupid ish without it biting you. It just flows down the road through twisties. It reminds me very much of my old NA Miata in that regard. It is a wonderful sportscar and I don't have very few minor faults to pick with it. I drove a customer's 718 Boxster Spyder for a day, and I didn't like it nearly as much. The gearing is ridiculously tall, it has too much power to ring out on the street, it had auto engine shutoff (annoying as hell in a sportscar), and I was afraid to damage it because it was hideously expensive.

With all the above said, I think the new twins are fantastic! Over the past few months we've had both the new GR86 and BRZ in to our shop to be measured for AP Racing brake kits. They are both outstanding, but I prefer the styling and handling of the GR86 if I had to choose.

I believe the GR86 provides a huge portion of the same experience my Boxster provides. My coworkers were laughing at me because I was fawning all over the GR86 when it was here. I think it is one of the best, most pure sportscars I've ever driven. The fact that it is modern and being built today is shocking to me. It gives the old-school, mechanical driving experience I love, laced with all the modern tech. The car handles phenomenally, and they fixed the engine this time around. The engine lives up to the rest of the car, unlike the first Gen. engine. If I was going to own only one fixed roof sportscar and I didn't want to spend a fortune, the GR86 is pretty much at the top of my list next to a 987 Base Cayman.

The GR86 is lighter, which I love. The GR86 also has a big advantage with the rear +2 for kids (or dwarfs). My youngest loves having her own little bucket seat in the back of my 997. I'd be shocked if the GR86 doesn't prove to be more reliable long-term than any Porsche. It's also going to cost a lot less to repair, and aftermarket upgrades are going to be far cheaper. The GR86 is a bit more spacious on the inside as well. In fact, I had tons of space. I'm 6'3 1/2" and I am totally maxed out in the Boxster on space. I fit horribly into the S2000 with that damn fixed steering wheel, and I had to remove the door handle and dead pedal in all my Miatae to get comfy.

In summary...I have owned a lot of sportscars. I have also driven a huge variety of customer cars and my friends' cars...I'm talking everything from crap-can racers to McLarens. IMO, the GR86 is one of the greatest sportscars available right now. The fact that it costs $30k is incredible. It is an immense bargain, and I will own one at some point. If I decided to sell off my fleet right now and could have only one, it would be right at the top of my list. The two other cars that most interest me right now are the Lotus Emira and the Lotus Evora GT.

My Boxster, which I adore.

I am lucky enough to have a friend that trusts me with his Boxster S enough to go to the track with it. I agree on all fronts except the stock suspension. On the track it did its best to become a front engine car at all possible opportunities. He swapped in some moton$$$ and after that it was sublime.
andys_garage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2022, 10:01 AM   #54
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,036
Thanks: 990
Thanked 3,221 Times in 1,715 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andys_garage View Post
I am lucky enough to have a friend that trusts me with his Boxster S enough to go to the track with it. I agree on all fronts except the stock suspension. On the track it did its best to become a front engine car at all possible opportunities. He swapped in some moton$$$ and after that it was sublime.
I found my '11 Cayman primarily needed a LOT more front camber for track work. I got shimmable GT3 control arms which got it to just under -3 degrees, worked great. I also had ~20% stiffer PASM springs installed, which required other mods to fix ride height, wound up spending a bit there, woulda been better off just getting aftermarket coilovers, but "street car"...

Last edited by ZDan; 05-26-2022 at 10:19 AM.
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2022, 11:29 AM   #55
Robertw
Senior Member
 
Robertw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 1996 Turbo Miata
Location: MA
Posts: 117
Thanks: 25
Thanked 78 Times in 39 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
It’s Hydraulic ASSIST, not hydraulic actuation. It’s still a mechanical rack and pinion.

The reason people equate electric assist with poor feedback is because the early implementations of electric steering in cars had really poor feedback. It took a few generations to get it right. Still, the last hydraulic assist systems generally had better feel and MUCH better weight to them than even today’s electric racks.
I think the lack of feedback in electric power steering is that eps doesn't seem to respond / react to the road at all. When drifting a car with hydraulic power steering transitioning from one direction to the other the steering counter steers during that transition, often on it's own, and you just control the speed at which it happens. When I was drifting a BRZ I always had to initiate the counter steering, and tell the wheel which way to start spinning. Once I got it started it would counter steer and feel more natural, but then to transition to the other direction I would have to repeat the process. I was driving purely off muscle memory vs feel, felt like sim drifting in Assetto Corsa on a cheap Logitech G27.

Maybe electric power steering just needs better programming and sensors telling the electric steering motor what the car is doing. And maybe the better feeling eps units now have systems to simulate road feedback.
Robertw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2022, 12:35 PM   #56
Arthur-A
Senior Member
 
Arthur-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Drives: 1992 240SX & 2020 BMW 330i
Location: PNW, USA
Posts: 173
Thanks: 120
Thanked 103 Times in 66 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Or maybe instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and bloating the car with tons of electronic crap, they could just use a system that is simple, works perfectly and naturally? And if anyone's concerned about taking up power, they could use electric power steering pump.
Arthur-A is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GR86 In R7 of the Toyota Gazoo Racing GT Cup + GR86 coming to Grand Turismo Sport Blighty GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) 37 07-18-2021 03:38 PM
'17 BRZ PP vs. '11 Cayman 2.9 ZDan FR-S / BRZ vs.... 112 03-21-2021 10:42 AM
F1 2010 NESW20 Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 37 12-16-2010 11:34 PM
2010 ms3 SharkBite Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 11 03-22-2010 01:45 AM
WRC 2010 4agze Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 9 03-12-2010 11:53 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.