2023 GR86 10th Aniv, GR Supra 6MT, GR Corolla MASTER THREAD

[Th3rdSun]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

For a manufacturer to only make 100 wouldn't even be worth the investment.
Granted the Supra may have earned a lot of its own flak, but to say they'd only release 100-250 is preposterous.

Let's be honest,they shouldn't even offer an auto version of this car unless we are talking about a 500 hp version.

[Rustyoid]

Originally Posted by Th3rdSun

Let's be honest,they shouldn't even offer an auto version of this car unless we are talking about a 500 hp version.

To make it overly simple, the Supra was designed as a race car. The ZF used is an absolute MONSTER for a torque converter automatic. It is faster than a manual. Its a simple case of function over form, the ZF is a better choice for maximum performance.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Rustyoid

To make it overly simple, the Supra was designed as a race car.

This is an often quoted reason for sports cars to be offered in automatic only, but it flies in the face of evidence of consumer preference (at least in the US). The 911 GT3 is probably the poster child of that, with the 991 generation being offered in PDK only due to "race car" and only having the budget to develop a single transmission. Porsche quickly changed their tune and now offer a manual GT3 again. Turns out many people buying a "race car" care more about engagement and fun than outright lap times or shift times. Is there a market for quick shifting automatic transmissions? Sure thing. But there also is a large market for manual transmissions.

As for the Supra, I agree with previous comments that this delay is due to marketing - offering a substantial change every model year would definitely increase sales. Had the Supra came out initially with a S58 and a manual, how many would still be buying them new today? With Toyota drip feeding us updates (the big bump in power to 2020, the 2 liter version in 2021 and now manual in 2023) I'm sure their sales figures are much improved. They still have 2024 to offer the S58 too...

[WolfpackS2k]

^^That's such a tired and dumb argument. How many people buy these and RACE them? Basically nobody. How many buy them to have fun? 100%

[Rustyoid]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

This is an often quoted reason for sports cars to be offered in automatic only, but it flies in the face of evidence of consumer preference (at least in the US). The 911 GT3 is probably the poster child of that, with the 991 generation being offered in PDK only due to "race car" and only having the budget to develop a single transmission. Porsche quickly changed their tune and now offer a manual GT3 again. Turns out many people buying a "race car" care more about engagement and fun than outright lap times or shift times. Is there a market for quick shifting automatic transmissions? Sure thing. But there also is a large market for manual transmissions.

As for the Supra, I agree with previous comments that this delay is due to marketing - offering a substantial change every model year would definitely increase sales. Had the Supra came out initially with a S58 and a manual, how many would still be buying them new today? With Toyota drip feeding us updates (the big bump in power to 2020, the 2 liter version in 2021 and now manual in 2023) I'm sure their sales figures are much improved. They still have 2024 to offer the S58 too...

I agree completely.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^That's such a tired and dumb argument. How many people buy these and RACE them? Basically nobody. How many buy them to have fun? 100%

I wasn't making an argument. I was stating facts. Simply put the automatic is faster and is the correct choice for maximum performance. They made a silly comment that an automatic shouldn't exist, or should only be offered on a high powered version. That is a dumb and tired argument as the ZF is better on paper.

Like I said, I agree they should've offered a manual initially and the delay was probably part of a marketing/sales plan. But someone saying ignorant things like the automatic never should've existed. That's just silly

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Maybe dealer mark up. MSRP will be the same or minor premium over 3.0 Premium's "standard" pricing.

Yea mark ups is what I meant.

[Samba86]

Originally Posted by Q8D

What he said ^ I'm curious on what upgrades, if any, are made down the line.

Aside from brakes, colours and new trims, I'd wager we'll see auto rev-matching added, and potentially wheels similar to the 15 spoke design on the GR Corolla and Yaris.

[Veloist]

Im interested to see what people actually think of the manual GR Supra after driving it.

The reason I enjoyed mine was because it made peak torque at 1500rpm and that snappy ZF8 transmission was such a sensation to feel and hear it shifting.

I wouldn’t want an auto in a GR86 and I wouldn’t want a manual in a GR Supra.

[LRNAD90]

So tired of the "but the auto is faster' argument. Yeah, it is, and marketing departments love numbers, but as a person that loves to drive it means nothing to me. Much rather drive a slightly slower three pedal version..

Supra was built as a Race Car? I dunno that I buy that. They should have cut a lot of the luxuries out, and made it lighter much lighter then. Seems much more a GT car to me. And maybe as a GT car an auto makes sense, but the Race Car argument doesn't to me..

Sports Cars are, for me, are about the driving experience. I'm more than happy to lose a tenth of a second or two of acceleration to have a good manual gearbox and three pedals. It is about the experience, and involvement of driving.

You want acceleration, buy a Tesla (or hell even a Rivian R1T pick-up, it will out accelerate many 'super cars' and leave a Supra looking like a Prius), but I don't think there is much driving enjoyment to be had there..

Porsche is one of the few manufacturers that seem to have figured this out, and are offering three pedal cars again..

Remember the 911R? Strip out the crap, bolt in the great engine and a manual gearbox, and what happens? Sold out before any are even produced. The sad part is that most are tucked away in climate controlled collections, appreciating till the owner dies and the estate sells them off for large profits..

I like looking at McLaren, Ferrari and Lamborghini, but have no interest in owning any current ones as they are all auto gearboxes (which is good for me, since they are all way out of my budget universe). I'd love to own a manual P car, but I don't think that is financially realistic for me either.

As far as I can tell, the GR86/BRZ and Miata are about the only currently available, affordable sports cars that subscribe to this formula..

[Rustyoid]

Originally Posted by Veloist

Im interested to see what people actually think of the manual GR Supra after driving it.

The reason I enjoyed mine was because it made peak torque at 1500rpm and that snappy ZF8 transmission was such a sensation to feel and hear it shifting.

I wouldn’t want an auto in a GR86 and I wouldn’t want a manual in a GR Supra.

Well said.

Originally Posted by LRNAD90

So tired of the "but the auto is faster' argument.

Again, you are missing the point. It's not an argument, its just a fact. I'm not debating anyone's preference, I completely understand. I brought it up because another user made a very silly comment that the auto shouldn't even exist.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^That's such a tired and dumb argument. How many people buy these and RACE them? Basically nobody. How many buy them to have fun? 100%

Also not true. At least on how you define "fun".
There are 3 in the small town I work. I have met all three of the owners at one point or another. They are all middle aged women that have no interest at all in wht you would define as "fun" so it is not even close to 100%. They just like the car.

The same applies to this whole "there should be NO AT" thought. Not everybody is a MT enthusiast. As many (or probably more) of these types of cars are bought by people that just use them as a DD. Very few will ever see a track day much less an actual race so there is most certainly a market for both MT and AT.

It is forums such as this that tend to skew the perspective since most of the buyers will never join and have their voices heard.

[LRNAD90]

Originally Posted by Rustyoid

Again, you are missing the point. It's not an argument, its just a fact. I'm not debating anyone's preference, I completely understand. I brought it up because another user made a very silly comment that the auto shouldn't even exist.

Ah, you missed my point. It is an argument, an argument for why fewer and fewer performance cars have been manufactured with manual gearboxes...

Not an argument about them being faster. I will stipulate that in many cases the auto gearboxes will be faster..

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by LRNAD90

Ah, you missed my point. It is an argument, an argument for why fewer and fewer performance cars have been manufactured with manual gearboxes...

Not an argument about them being faster. I will stipulate that in many cases the auto gearboxes will be faster..

Fewer and fewer are made because fewer and fewer people buy them.
It isn't a case of what is "better" or "more fun" but simple majority rules economics.

[Rustyoid]

Originally Posted by LRNAD90

Ah, you missed my point. It is an argument, an argument for why fewer and fewer performance cars have been manufactured with manual gearboxes...

Not an argument about them being faster. I will stipulate that in many cases the auto gearboxes will be faster..

Ah. LOL! So we are agreeing that the auto deserves to exist? That's all I was getting at