Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

People want it all (Lightweight, fast, good looking, reliable)

For less than 35k.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That's probably what I would be driving right now if I didn't have a 1 year old. But to be honest, I like the exterior design of the twins more than the early Cayman. Both cars are instant classics IMO though.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

That's probably what I would be driving right now if I didn't have a 1 year old. But to be honest, I like the exterior design of the twins more than the early Cayman. Both cars are instant classics IMO though.

Not to mention the whole new car vs 10 year old car for the same price thing. To the best of my knowledge a new Cayman cost just a tad over $35K

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not to mention the whole new car vs 10 year old car for the same price thing. To the best of my knowledge a new Cayman cost just a tad over $35K

I'm pretty sure new Caymans are like 50k new.

I figured since he posted an old one he was implying used. I don't think I could ever justify buying a brand new Porsche.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

define reliable...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I'm pretty sure new Caymans are like 50k new.

I figured since he posted an old one he was implying used. I don't think I could ever justify buying a brand new Porsche.

That is my point. It is easy to say "get a 10 year old car at the same price". It remains a 10 year old car. It is not a comparison to a new one of any value.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not to mention the whole new car vs 10 year old car for the same price thing. To the best of my knowledge a new Cayman cost just a tad over $35K

Oh, NOW you want impossibilities?

I posted a 10 year old car for a reason.

Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m

define reliable...

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Oh, NOW you want impossibilities?

I posted a 10 year old car for a reason.

consumer reports....no you did uhnt. entire threads have been devoted to that stuff so i wont.

http://www.planet-9.com/987-cayman-a...ing-guide.html

ETA: broken ignition and clutch interlock switches that will.leave.you.stranded.

1. IMS bearing - From 2006 forward the IMS bearing is virtually a non-factor in the 987 platform (2005 Boxsters are still subject to a higher rate of failure). Porsche installed a modified IMS bearing that virtually eliminated the problem. Reports of IMS bearing failures on 2006+ cars have been almost non-existent on this website. While there may be a small percentage that do fail, the frequency of failures is by far much lower than prior to 2006. So much has been made of IMS failures (class action lawsuit, etc.) that some vendors have created hype for their IMS repair kits and will attempt to sell them to anyone with an IMS, regardless of year/make/model. If you are fearful of an IMS problem in a 2006-2008 987 then have it checked out, but likely you will not have a problem. That isn't so much a track day thing. Seems to affect the odd car that has been stored a lot and not revved much or had oil changed much. Automatics seem more vulnerable than sticks because they typically don't get the revs on a regular basis, but we don't have scientific data only occasional word of mouth postings.

2. Vapor-Oil Separator (VOS) aka Air-Oil Separator (AOS)- Two names for the same thing. This does the same work as a PCV valve on a more pedestrian car. The vacuum and pressure created inside the Porsche engine design plus the closer proximity of oil pan to the engine intake, created a need for a bigger capacity thing to do this work. Unfortunately, the stock one on the first generation cars is prone to failure or just getting overwhelmed during track days and autocross events. It can fill up with too much oil and then leak (gush?) oil into the intake tract during high vacuum situations (like when you're in a low gear at high RPMs and using engine braking to slow the car as you would in these sorts of situation). One instance of this can cause up to half a quart of oil loss, a big plume of ugly smoke coming out the back of the car and a black flag from corner workers. The cure is a GT3 or Cayman Motorsport VOS. The Cayman Motorsport one is easier to install but costs more. I think Suncoasticon carries them as a regular item. They are otherwise rather difficult to source. The first person on this forum had to go the Germany to find his.

3. Engine Sump - It's shallow and oil sloshes away from the oil pickup. One thing that helps a lot is a deep sump kit. You can buy these from Mantis or other site sponsors. You get a ring of aluminum with bolt holes in it. You attach the bottom of the sump to one side and the bottom of the engine to the other side. You also get a CNC machined piece that extends the length of the oil intake to the new bottom of your new sump. Gives you more room to slosh. Typically after install a car requires 10 quarts of oil for a change with new filter. If you go to track days or even sincere autocross, you need this.

4. More Engine Sump - Another issue with these engines is that they do not return the oil that's been used by the engine very efficiently to the sump. The right side cylinder head is especially vulnerable. Oil goes through the bearings and comes out up by the head. The exit for that oil is at the back of the right side head and it only uses gravity to return the oil to the sump. In a long hard turn at high RPMS, a LOT of oil is pumped and can't get back to the sump. The result can be low oil level in the sump. Another bad result is that the oil that collects in the head gets churned into a froth by the valves racing up and down like a blender. When the oil does come back to the sump, it's often infused with air bubbles. Pumping air into the oil system means you're not pumping oil, which is what bearings desperately need to stay healthy. Most of the engine failures in Caymans have been track day or just after track day failures. The connecting rod bearing farthest from the oil pump, #6, has the longest path and seems to be the first one to go...usually. Also, from the sound of the many posts about this, it seems that the problem happens over time...many short "no oil incidents" take a little bit off the bearing. As bearing clearance increases, the ability of the bearing to hold oil decreases. That makes the effective no-oil time longer because the bearing runs dry just a bit sooner on a bearing with increased clearance. Increased bearing clearance also causes hammering when the bearing hits bottom and top dead centers. All these things start to stack up and you get a failure eventually. If you are buying a car that has seen a lot of track time but has not had any engine sump work done you will want to have the engine internals checked thoroughly or at least a good engine oil analysis done to see if there is bearing material in the oil. Day to day driving typically doesn't stress the engine enough to cause this problem, however, there have been some engine oil related failures on cars that did not see track time as well.

To mitigate this problem, some members have sent to Germany for a "TPP Oil-Safe Kit" and had it installed. It is a double oil pump. One side replaces the original pump. The other side is routed to the right side cylinder head cover in a spot near the front of the engine where it can suck out the used oil and return it to the sump quickly. This stops the churning and the low oil condition in the sump....on the right side. The left side has its gravity fed oil channel in the front. That seems to work a bit better but you would still be a little vulnerable on right hand turns. LN Engineering now makes a kit that covers both cylinder heads...3 pumps.

You can help yourself as far as engine longevity goes, with a few good practices: A. If you're cornering hard on a track, shift up a gear. Pretend your red-line is 6,500 instead of 7,000. That really helps. B. Fresh oil before an event and change it within a few hundred miles after the event. C. Don't overfill, but do keep the oil topped up throughout the weekend. Don't run low oil levels. D. Watch for excessive smoke. If you see it, do not continue the track event until you have had the VOS checked out. Upgrading the VOS is a very good idea for any car seeing track time, for a street only car much less so.

5. Power Steering - Because of the unfortunate placement of the power steering pump, it's prone to overheating to the point where its plastic reservoir can melt and warp and then leak. When you lose that fluid, the overheating gets worse and you blow the power steering pump. A power steering cooler will fix this. There are several ways to do it. The articles section has some info and so does the forum. An under drive pulley (smaller diameter drive pulley that turns all your accessories slower...old NASCAR trick) will give you a bit more power and a bit less heat in your power steering. Change the drive belt to the next size smaller that Gates makes...1" smaller? I did that and the idler pulley ended up in exactly the same position as stock....perfect! There is one early version of the RSS brand of aftermarket under drive pulley that should be avoided. Don't buy a used RSS under drive pulley if you don't confirm that it is not that one. They had spokes for light weight. They broke a lot and the design was replaced in '07 or '08 but there may be some old ones floating around the system. Beware. No other types have had any problems to our knowledge.

Now, you can go ahead and buy that Gen1 Cayman or Boxster with both eyes open. There is a fairly big jump in price for an '09 or newer 987. The reasons are:
1. Direct Injection engine on the newer cars has more torque and power.
2. Both the S and Base Gen 2 cars have 5 oil pumps. This thing will just about run upside-down.
3. Ventilation is better in the engine box and the power steering has overheating thing has been attended to.
4. The suspension on Gen 2 cars is generally considered to offer a little more comfort without handling trade-off.
5. There is no Intermediate Shafticon on these engines, so it follows that there is no Intermediate Shafticon bearing to worry over.
6. Electronics inside the car are updated. You get hands-free phone and better navigation etc.

I would add the shifter cables to this list. The end of the cable that attaches to the left side of the transmission is prone to failure, usually the cable itself snaps off where it attaches to the plastic end piece that attaches to the shifting mechanism. The failure usually happens when a shift has just been made and the driver finds himself in the previous gear and a floppy shift lever. Replacing the broken cable requires a set of two if going the OEM route, as Porsche only sells them as a pair. Alternatives are Numeric cables which are guaranteed for life and will probably outlast the car, or replacement ends which require removing the stock cables to install, but cost less than the Numeric cables. I don't have any numbers for how many calbes break, but a number of subscribers to this forum have reported this failure.'

I also would add the water pump, it really is a maintenance item, and should be replaced at 40-50,000 miles, 60,000 a the outside. Both metal and plastic impeller pumps are available but the consensus wisdom is to go with the OEM plastic impeller, because if the bearing fails the metal impeller will eat into the aluminum block and cause severe damage, while the plastic will simply eat itself up with no harm to the block. If the prospective car has 50,000+ miles on it, and no record of the WP having been replaced, it should be included in the things to definitely do immediately.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m

consumer reports....no you did uhnt. entire threads have been devoted to that stuff so i wont.

Please see post #3:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...61#post1330361

No car is perfect, I've lost count of how many CEL's I've gotten on my 86.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Please see post #3:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...61#post1330361

No car is perfect, I've lost count of how many CEL's I've gotten on my 86.

but...youre the one who presented it as a measure of reliability...in the context of this discussion...which is ~enthusiasts~ purchasing the most streetcar they can for the money. idk.

not to mention brand loyalty mitigates self-reporting of reliability issues. porsche has alot of it.

[Poodles]

I'll just leave this here: http://www.edmunds.com/porsche/cayma...9/cost-to-own/

Oldest one they list. Notice the maintenance and repair costs.

If you can't afford a German car new, you can't afford it used.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Poodles

I'll just leave this here: http://www.edmunds.com/porsche/cayma...9/cost-to-own/

Oldest one they list. Notice the maintenance and repair costs.

If you can't afford a German car new, you can't afford it used.

According to Edmunds, they use JD Power and rate a 2006 Cayman as more reliable than a 2013 BRZ.

http://www.edmunds.com/porsche/cayma...9/reliability/

http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/brz/20...e/reliability/

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I've lost count of how many CEL's I've gotten on my 86.

Mine is easy:


0

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Mine is easy:


0

*insert generic argument about different scenarios making anecdotal evidence meaningless*

Speaking of which, aren't we due for a 'what does insurance cost' thread right about now?