Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5

[Ozzman]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

How does the ceramic pieces of the cat get ingested back into the cyl.

There is usually some pressure wave reversion in exhaust systems that can allow such events to occur. The early 2000's Nissan Sentras had a big problem with this and their close coupled cats. I'm not saying this is what happened, but wondering if it is a possibility.

[SubieNate]

I mentioned this in the other thread but thought I'd throw it up here too. When I had my car in to fix the CEL for the cam sensors (upgrade to 812 ecu which apparently most everyone else got already) I mentioned the DI issue, and TemeCal's car was in at the same dealership. When I picked it up the service rep claimed that they had updated to the latest ecu tune which fixed the DI issue. Can anyone speak to the validity of this? Is the fix for this already in new cars and out there but just not in an official US TSB yet or was the rep blowing some smoke? @moto-mike I'd appreciate your input, you seem pretty knowledgeable as to what's going on with the stock tunes.

Also, can you (Moto-mike) or anyone else speak to whether we need to worry about the knock that is present in the stock tune, especially us here in California? I was somewhat skeptical of 12.5:1 on California horse piss 91 gas but now I'm somewhat worried instead of skeptical.

Cheers
Nathan

[CSG Mike]

Pics from teardown


Engine from the bottom. Connecting rod on cyl 2 has seen some heat...


Engine from the front


Cylinders 2 and 4


Damaged collar (next 3 photos are on the same "pair" of injectors)


Collar completely gone and injector... scorched?


Another angle


Other two injectors. This one is a bit damaged as well








Oil pan...

[CSG Mike]

Also, it seems one cat MELTED a bit (has a pretty good sized "dent" in it, but it's smooth), and the other cat is falling apart.

[NotSoJDM]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Also, it seems one cat MELTED a bit (has a pretty good sized "dent" in it, but it's smooth), and the other cat is falling apart.

Wouldn't the melted cat be caused from the lean condition from the failed injector?

I haven't read through the whole thread but it definitely seems like we have an injection problem and I hope they take care of you on round two and get this issue fixed for the rest of us.

Tracking a car on a stock ECU, to me,
shouldn't affect warranty. Stock rev limit is set, so where's the damage going to come from that is out of typical design parameters of the engine. Everything is built with some factor of safety in mind to account for things like this...

Best of luck to you.

[Lateapex]

Originally Posted by Gords_zenith

Also, another piece of the puzzle that I remembered last night at work. When I dyno'd my car completely stock, (btw it put down 172 whp, 143 wtq on 94, on a dynojet) the operator noticed that A/F went super rich in the last 500 rpms down to 10:1! He said this is very unheard of even in his built supercharged or turbo'd mustangs. So to me this maybe suggest that toyabaru knew about this and simply tried to hide the detonation by giving more fuel. If anyone else can chime in on this.

Not unheard of at all, many Toyota's dating back to the 1990s, regardless or whether n/a or turbo typically would show 11 - 10:1 AFRs at WOT and high rpm - its standard safeguarding.

[DriftEightSix]

Originally Posted by #87

So if I drive my car on the redline on the street and don't disable trac and I get this issue, will they claim I was racing and try to deny me?

Are they basing your racing use on the metal found or the online evidence. It seems they say the metal shavings mean you were racing but then reference other evidence.

love to know the answer of this too.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Lateapex

Not unheard of at all, many Toyota's dating back to the 1990s, regardless or whether n/a or turbo typically would show 11 - 10:1 AFRs at WOT and high rpm - its standard safeguarding.

That make this issue so surprising, I don't think an ECU change is going to fix it? At 11:1 AFR I have a hard time believing that detonation is melting the Teflon.

My guess is these O-rings are a weak spot regardless, Teflon really isn't rated for much over 450F. Now a combustion chamber is going to get hotter than that (fuel is burning).

They have the injector position so that normal driving the o-ring won't see over 500F, but keep the engine close to redline for an extended time and that o-ring doesn't stand a chance regardless of timing during a shift.

There is more to this than we are being told. We need an o-ring made from asbestos or ceramic, not Teflon or an organic polymer, any after market vendors have this on their radar?. Teflon is a very poor choice. Makes you wonder if Toyota laid off their materials engineering group during the recession ?

Or we enthusiasts need to take a serious look at our head water temperatures, I'm guessing there is a water jacket right around that o-ring in the head. A better water pump/radiator & oil cooler may be the real fix for spirited driving.

[Sellout]

Originally Posted by regal

That make this issue so surprising, I don't think an ECU change is going to fix it? At 11:1 AFR I have a hard time believing that detonation is melting the Teflon.

My guess is these O-rings are a weak spot regardless, Teflon really isn't rated for much over 450F. Now a combustion chamber is going to get hotter than that (fuel is burning).

They have the injector position so that normal driving the o-ring won't see over 500F, but keep the engine close to redline for an extended time and that o-ring doesn't stand a chance regardless of timing during a shift.

There is more to this than we are being told. We need an o-ring made from asbestos or ceramic, not Teflon or an organic polymer, any after market vendors have this on their radar?. Teflon is a very poor choice. Makes you wonder if Toyota laid off their materials engineering group during the recession ?

Or we enthusiasts need to take a serious look at our head water temperatures, I'm guessing there is a water jacket right around that o-ring in the head. A better water pump/radiator & oil cooler may be the real fix for spirited driving.

Best way to answer the question would be to look at the other direct injection gasoline engine out there. What material are their seals made out of? Are Skyactiv Mazdas having the same problem?

Also, the detonation isn't occurring under WOT 11:1 conditions. It's occurring when you step on the throttle following a shift, when the timing is advanced WAY too far and you're just starting to ask for fuel again. ie it's going to be a bit lean right at that instant.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Sellout

Best way to answer the question would be to look at the other direct injection gasoline engine out there. What material are their seals made out of? Are Skyactiv Mazdas having the same problem?

Also, the detonation isn't occurring under WOT 11:1 conditions. It's occurring when you step on the throttle following a shift, when the timing is advanced WAY too far and you're just starting to ask for fuel again. ie it's going to be a bit lean right at that instant.

http://www.therpmstore.com/store/p/5...-3-6-CX-7.html
http://www.protegegarage.com/1767-fu...azdaspeed.html

There are some links to upgraded seals for Mazdas. I wonder if they'd be interested in making some for us too?

[2forme]

Originally Posted by DriftEightSix

love to know the answer of this too.

I think if they look at your ECU and see 7300 RPM, they will probably try to claim you're abusing the motor. Even though you are operating it within OEM specifications.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Sellout

Also, the detonation isn't occurring under WOT 11:1 conditions. It's occurring when you step on the throttle following a shift, when the timing is advanced WAY too far and you're just starting to ask for fuel again. ie it's going to be a bit lean right at that instant.

That's the working theory but I don't think things happen that fast, ECU's are slow (think of throttle by wire vs. cable.). I think the detonation causing this damage is after the o-ring has melted over the long haul pulling vacuum directly into the chamber giving a nasty lean detonation as the o-ring lifts and drops.

The seal is degrading first then massive destructive detonation. I don't see how the chamber is leaning out as fast as Toyota's theory claims during shifting. In other words root cause is heat (>450F) melting the Teflon, this is a heat soak issue first. Not an instant death by fast throttle/shifting. Just makes more sense to me.

Its easy for an EE at Toyota to say he has a fix with the code and it may help, but I think best interest long term is to look at keeping the heads cool and a better o-ring for heavy high rpm driving.

Just look at the FI guys, their biggest limitation is temperature. Sure they can boost 10psi for short spurts but have you seen some of their reported oil temps on track testing? Avo reported high oil temps on the track even with no FI. That's the issue everyone has with these cars, the heads are just getting too hot under spirited driving and the Teflon isn't surviving long term.

Has anyone had a blown injector o-ring running an oil cooler?

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I think if they look at your ECU and see 7300 RPM, they will probably try to claim you're abusing the motor. Even though you are operating it within OEM specifications.

And I would call total bullshit on them. If 7300 is the OEM redline, then the engine can function beyond that level--the engineers just designed a buffer in to keep Joe Schmo from blowing up the car the first time he mashes the accelerator.

[dabocx]

What about meth injection like ptuning's setup? Would that help cool it down?

I was planning on installing my FBM kit this month but now im thinking ill wait and buy/install the radiator and oil cooler at the same time. So far I have had no issues however and im at 8400 miles with several 20-25 minute HPDE sessions in texas summer AKA 11 months out of the year...

What about engine blowby? Would a Oil catch can help out or is the oil blowby not a issue. I have too many questions on this issue now.