Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Most Japanese auto companies during that time had extra money for fun projects. And even then cars like the Supra Turbo didn’t sell very well. Or the 300ZX TT or RX7 Turbo.
It wasn’t until years later they have been appreciated more. Toyota wanted to go conservative with the engine in the twins, and I can’t blame them. I’m sure it was an expensive project to undertake, even with the partnership with Subaru.
If the 2nd gen has something like the FA24 with more torque through the powerband, I think that will equal an even better car. All that’s lacking from the twins is more torque.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Point of clarification for this often misused term.
The Supras much like the Twins now, sold, and still sell, just fine. The manufacturers plan how many they want, build to that plan and sell them all.
Cars like the Aztec, Edsel, Corvair, etc, did not sell well! Unless there were hidden fields of unsold Supras that they eventually deeply discounted or even crushed (they crushed thousands of unsold Aztecs) then sales were not an issue.
The turbo Supra back then and the modern version now were and are niche cars that were built in limited numbers on purpose. They never were looking for Corolla or Camry quantities since there just was not that big a market.
It is easy to tell when a car isn't selling since you will see piles of them gather dust in the back lot of dealers, they sell them for huge discounts or they start giving them away as prizes in Cracker Jack boxes.

[Stephen W.]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Point of clarification for this often misused term.
The Supras much like the Twins now, sold, and still sell, just fine. The manufacturers plan how many they want, build to that plan and sell them all.
Cars like the Aztec, Edsel, Corvair, etc, did not sell well!
< snip >
It is easy to tell when a car isn't selling since you will see piles of them gather dust in the back lot of dealers, they sell them for huge discounts or they start giving them away as prizes in Cracker Jack boxes.

Tcoat, I get your point but, just to clarify for everyone... The Corvair sold just fine! It outsold predictions for it's first three years. It fell short in 1964 due to the introduction of the Ford Mustang. However, it rallied back in 1965.
The truth is that in fighting within GM (specifically John DeLorean demanding his own way) is what killed the Corvair.
Don't you just hate it when people keep pushing the myths instead of researching to find the truth? I know I do!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Stephen W.

Tcoat, I get your point but, just to clarify for everyone... The Corvair sold just fine! It outsold predictions for it's first three years. It fell short in 1964 due to the introduction of the Ford Mustang. However, it rallied back in 1965.
The truth is that in fighting within GM (specifically John DeLorean demanding his own way) is what killed the Corvair.
Don't you just hate it when people keep pushing the myths instead of researching to find the truth? I know I do!

Ya sorry it was a poor example because as you said it really was just the one year. It did really really poorly that year though!
I loved my Corvair and it is on my short list if I ever get another classic car.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Point of clarification for this often misused term.
The Supras much like the Twins now, sold, and still sell, just fine. The manufacturers plan how many they want, build to that plan and sell them all.
Cars like the Aztec, Edsel, Corvair, etc, did not sell well! Unless there were hidden fields of unsold Supras that they eventually deeply discounted or even crushed (they crushed thousands of unsold Aztecs) then sales were not an issue.
The turbo Supra back then and the modern version now were and are niche cars that were built in limited numbers on purpose. They never were looking for Corolla or Camry quantities since there just was not that big a market.
It is easy to tell when a car isn't selling since you will see piles of them gather dust in the back lot of dealers, they sell them for huge discounts or they start giving them away as prizes in Cracker Jack boxes.

I will concede that you have to look at projection numbers for specialty cars like the Supra, it was never meant to sell in big numbers. And there was a non turbo version offered. But if it met Toyota’s projections why did they kill it off? And not bring it back for 20 years? I don’t think it’s a reach to say that people stopped buying the “expensive” Japanese sports cars by the early 2000’s. The RX-7 died, the Supra, and the 3000GT. Supra sales numbers steadily declined as the Yen weakened.
I’m not disagreeing with everything you said, but I don’t think it’s a big mystery why the MKIV Supra had to go away. And it’s a fantastic car, one of the best GT/sports cars ever. A buyer with that money at that time probably didn’t consider the Supra Turbo was in the same league with the 911 Turbo, or even Dodge Viper or Corvette. I will take the Supra all day every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gymratter]

regarding the MK4 Supra, would lack of interest be a better word? in 97 Toyota drop the MSRP, but that still didnt help sales. the car was pulled from the European market in 96, and US/Canada in 98, and only continued on in Japan until 02.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I will concede that you have to look at projection numbers for specialty cars like the Supra, it was never meant to sell in big numbers. And there was a non turbo version offered. But if it met Toyota’s projections why did they kill it off? And not bring it back for 20 years? I don’t think it’s a reach to say that people stopped buying the “expensive” Japanese sports cars by the early 2000’s. The RX-7 died, the Supra, and the 3000GT. Supra sales numbers steadily declined as the Yen weakened.
I’m not disagreeing with everything you said, but I don’t think it’s a big mystery why the MKIV Supra had to go away. And it’s a fantastic car, one of the best GT/sports cars ever. A buyer with that money at that time probably didn’t consider the Supra Turbo was in the same league with the 911 Turbo, or even Dodge Viper or Corvette. I will take the Supra all day every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cars come and cars go. What people think of them 30 years later means nothing.
There was also a global recession in the early 90s and even though things had "recovered" by 95 it was too late to save some of the niche models that were planned to be axed. Hindsight is 20/20 so looking back now and saying
but things were fine by 1995" is not the same as sitting there in 1992 and deciding what cars to keep making when everybody is broke. There is always a much bigger picture than just how good a car was or wasn't.

[gymratter]

supposedly a MK4 successor was planned in 97, but was quickly scrapped.

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-s-perfor...pra-1829125702

Tada’s association with the Supra goes almost all the way back to the 1993 with the fourth-generation car, the A80. That car, developed by famed engineer and Lexus LS godfather Ichiro Suzuki, would go on to become something of a legend (rather like Suzuki himself) and Tada found himself assigned to Suzuki’s ‘Z-Division,’ ready to begin work on the next Supra.

That didn’t work out so well, though.

“Suzuki-san was doing the A80 Supra and invited me to join his team,” Tada told us over dinner, through an interpreter. “I got excited because I knew that meant I’d be working on the next Supra. That was in 1997…”

Tada laughs hard at this once-painful memory. “That was exactly when Toyota began shedding cars like the Supra, cars with small margins. The Supra project was suspended almost as soon as I joined.”

Yes, there was supposed to be another Supra. Take a moment and allow yourself to feel those emotions and work through them. I’ll be here when you’re ready.

Anyway, Tada was given a humble people carrier, the Toyota Raum mini-minivan, to work on.

[vh_supra26]

^^In retrospect that was probably a blessing in disguise. Did anyone really wanted a reskin version of this with a Supra badge?

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by JesseG

If the 2nd gen has something like the FA24 with more torque through the powerband, I think that will equal an even better car. All that’s lacking from the twins is more torque.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's a quote I found on the S2ki forums that dealt with something similar in the change from the AP1 (peaky 2.0L engine that revved to 9,000rpm) to the AP2 (2.2L engine that increased torque and enhanced driveability, with a "reduced" 8,300rpm redline):

"The AP2 is a better car, but the AP1 is a better S2000"

I wonder if the FA24 will bring us to a similar dilemma. Although I did watch a Youtube video that suggested the FA24 is a real gem (supposedly building in all the lessons learned from the FA20, including having beehive springs and other enhancements which should allow it to rev fairly high)

Colour me cautiously-optimistic!

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

There's a quote I found on the S2ki forums that dealt with something similar in the change from the AP1 (peaky 2.0L engine that revved to 9,000rpm) to the AP2 (2.2L engine that increased torque and enhanced driveability, with a "reduced" 8,300rpm redline):

"The AP2 is a better car, but the AP1 is a better S2000"

The F22 only hit the US shores, both Asia and Europe kept the F20 for the AP2 - goes to show what they thought of the US markets. I guess the same reason it took so long to get the CTR and the ITR never arrived on your shores.

The difference is that the high RPM is what made the F20 engine seem more like a "race" engine and that is what has always given B/F/K series engines their character. The FA20 hasn't got that so by gaining more torque I can't see that it would lose anything. I really wish that Subaru could combine AVCS and AVLS as that would certainly give the engine more flair if that could aid unleashing some more RPM....... I think I still miss VTEC.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Cars come and cars go. What people think of them 30 years later means nothing.
There was also a global recession in the early 90s and even though things had "recovered" by 95 it was too late to save some of the niche models that were planned to be axed. Hindsight is 20/20 so looking back now and saying
but things were fine by 1995" is not the same as sitting there in 1992 and deciding what cars to keep making when everybody is broke. There is always a much bigger picture than just how good a car was or wasn't.

I wouldn’t say it means nothing, heritage is important. And perceptions of a brand stick with people. I agree it’s MUCH easier looking back and playing Toyota CEO. It’s a shame what happened to some of the really cool cars of the 90’s, but global economics influence every industry. And I suppose the RX7 lived on in the RX8, and we did get a new Supra, eventually. Can you imagine if someone told you 20 years ago the next Supra would be a joint collaboration of Toyota and BMW?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

There's a quote I found on the S2ki forums that dealt with something similar in the change from the AP1 (peaky 2.0L engine that revved to 9,000rpm) to the AP2 (2.2L engine that increased torque and enhanced driveability, with a "reduced" 8,300rpm redline):

"The AP2 is a better car, but the AP1 is a better S2000"

I wonder if the FA24 will bring us to a similar dilemma. Although I did watch a Youtube video that suggested the FA24 is a real gem (supposedly building in all the lessons learned from the FA20, including having beehive springs and other enhancements which should allow it to rev fairly high)

Colour me cautiously-optimistic!

I’ve thought about that, how having a different engine or forced induction could change the character of the 86/BRZ. I think both Toyota and Subaru will be careful to maintain the balance of the car. If they decide to go with forced induction (unlikely) at least we know it’s possible to tune a modern engine to have very little turbo lag. More likely it will stay NA with a bump in displacement and torque.
I wouldn’t say the FA20 has a screaming top end anyway. I do like to rev it out and think it’s a fun engine past 4500 rpm.

Oh and I wanted to add, I don’t agree the AP2 S2000 is a worse S2000. I’ve driven both and I think both have their advantages. The redline on the AP1 is hilarious, it really does feel like an F1 car. Or what I imagine it to feel like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I wouldn’t say it means nothing, heritage is important. And perceptions of a brand stick with people. I agree it’s MUCH easier looking back and playing Toyota CEO. It’s a shame what happened to some of the really cool cars of the 90’s, but global economics influence every industry. And I suppose the RX7 lived on in the RX8, and we did get a new Supra, eventually. Can you imagine if someone told you 20 years ago the next Supra would be a joint collaboration of Toyota and BMW?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heritage is only important to the marketing department so that perceptions of a brand can be born. Te cars you named gave a perception of brand to about .001% of the car buying population. All the rest have a totally different perception and don't know nor care that those other cars ever existed.

Twenty years ago I would have said "who cares?" and meant it. You could pick Supras up for dirt cheap 20 years ago.
Then that damned movie came out and it became a legend to people that have never even sat in one much less drove it.

I would not have been surprised if I had cared though because I had already owned and wore out a joint venture car. Joint ventures are not new and a project with BMW is not as crazy as some would think.

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Sounds like you want a modern version of an S15. They were priced about the same as a GC8 WRX back in the late 90’s early 00’s. The Australian version had 147kW detuned from the Japanese version of 184kW and weighed about as much as a twin. I rode in a friend’s one years ago when he had it, a lot of fun.

But with safety, emissions and other considerations that weren’t around 20 years ago, I’d assume a 2 litre turbo in the twin would weigh more. But then again I’m not a mechanical engineer.

That was the golden era for Japanese sports cars.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/features...sx-new-vs-used

Yes exactly, I want a modern day silvia. I had a 90 fastback back in the day and rented an s15 when I was in Japan. It really is my perfect car.

Guess we'll see what they do with the engine.