Lowering Springs vs. Coilovers for a 1 in. drop?

[ACT86]

I’ve been really happy with my ST coilovers. They’re basically a KW-V1 in a different casing. Well priced, beautiful road holding, and drove them 1200km in one day this week over some pretty average country roads and the ride was no worse than stock.

[gen3v8]

Originally Posted by ZDan

All that said, I would like to be able to dial up both low- and high-speed damping a bit on my Bilstein B8s! They seem a little on the soft side for Swift Spec-R springs...

And the fact you had to get 6mm spacers on the front machined for height leveling. Lot of work and money for a simple setup that good Coil overs do IMO.

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Of the handful of 1-way adjustable dampers I've had over the years, only one set adjusted both high- and low-speed rebound and compression damping in a balanced way that I was happy with.

Set of Tein SS coilovers I had just had godawful excessive high-speed compression damping no matter how they were set. And Ohlins R&T I had honestly blew off too much on the high-speed side and I wanted more high-speed compression and rebound but adjustment only altered low-speed damping.

Meanwhile I've had sets of basic non-adjustable replacement KYB struts and shocks where I thought the balance of low- and high-speed damping was just perfect right out of the box!

Long/short, unless you get really sophisticated dampers with separate high- and low-speed, rebound and compression adjustability, you're not guaranteed (or even likely) to be able to get overall damping how you want it with 1- or 2-ways anyway. And then again with 3- or 4-way adjustables, without suspension motion data it's unlikely you'll be able to set them properly anyway!

My impression is that good non-adjustable dampers may do a better job of balancing high/low and rebound/compression vs. more basic 1- or 2-way adjustables.

I'm not really arguing for poor quality coilovers, rather that the standard dampers in most (affordable) cars are built to a price, and simply can't offer the potential of a better quality replacement damper that has been designed with fewer "compromises" in its design brief.

The reality is that a fairly reasonable quality 1 or 2 way adjustable damper is very unlikely to perform worse, and is very likely to be able to perform much better than an OEM damper. And a quality 3 or 4 way damper can actually be set properly without the need for suspension motion data by an experienced (and suspension savy) driver.

I'd be the first to admit that I would be totally lost attempting to fiddle damper settings, I'm just not that smart, but after having them adjusted by someone competent, I've also almost never felt the need to have to play again with the settings afterwards.

Having said all that, the greatest single improvement to the Ohlins RT's was simply winding them up to standard (Aussie) road height (instead of the nearly 20mm drop they were supplied with out of the box), after being a little underwhelmed by them in the first couple of weeks of driving. The difference (for me) was like night and day in terms of how they were then dealing with their work through their available stroke.

[Decep]

Originally Posted by ACT86

I’ve been really happy with my ST coilovers. They’re basically a KW-V1 in a different casing. Well priced, beautiful road holding, and drove them 1200km in one day this week over some pretty average country roads and the ride was no worse than stock.

I would do something like that before doing lowering springs on stock dampers. They just never feel quite right IMO.

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I didn't say "rather quickly". I said "relatively quickly".

Still, what I should have said and meant to imply was that reliability and longevity will likely be reduced *relative to the OEM setup*, and not that they'll wear out "quickly". FWIW I've also gotten decent longevity out of these parts, but I've also had steel bodies and adjustment collars rust to bejeezus, and I've had aluminum ones (Ohlins) seize to point of no longer being easily "adjustable".

Fair enough. I'll also add that my KW V3s have the same mileage on them, and still turn as smoothly as the day I bought them. Plastic collars FTW!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by gen3v8

And the fact you had to get 6mm spacers on the front machined for height leveling. Lot of work and money for a simple setup that good Coil overs do IMO.

That was a function of the camber plates... The unexpected additional front lowering due to those wasn't the problem, it was the combination of that *and* reduced front bump travel that forced me to seek solutions. Friend with machine shop access did them for me for free, I bought him a few packs of nice beerz...

For someone who just wants to drop the car a bit (<1") and won't go beyond camber bolts and/or offset upper mounts, I'd suggest RCE lowering springs before full coilovers. For a bit more lowering (just over 1"), Swift springs with Bilstiens. Actually I'd recommend the Bilsteins to anyone with a PP/Sachs car, lowered or not!

If I were doing it all over again, I would go coilovers. When I started out with this car it was going to be my daily, with LS3 FD being the track car. Pretty quickly it turned out the BRZ was my daily *and* my track car... With the need for >3 front camber, coilovers that come with camber plates is gonna be the way to go. My setup (-1.25" on Swift Spec-R springs, Raceseng camber plates, Bilstein B8s) is very much a street/track compromise. Last year I added Eibach sways to get some more roll stiffness. Honestly I think I'd be better off with Good coilovers with stiffer springs/damping and stock sways, which would be the same on classification points...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Decep

I would do something like that before doing lowering springs on stock dampers. They just never feel quite right IMO.

The 1-way adjustable Tein SS coilovers never felt *anything like* right on my V8 FD! Insane high-speed compression damping, godawful ride and murder over curbing at the track, no matter what setting. They were on the car when I bought it... Quickly replaced those with single-adjustable Ohlins R&T coilovers. Fricking SWEEET! Could drive with unabated speed over potholes and flat-foot it over curbings at the track. But *still*, IMO they bled off too much, I would have liked a bit *more* high-speed damping. But adjusters only affected low-speed damping...

Having one or two damping knobs to twiddle doesn't mean you can get damping "perfect". I've had plenty of track friends forever monkeying with their damping adjusters and never finding a sweet spot...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

I'm not really arguing for poor quality coilovers, rather that the standard dampers in most (affordable) cars are built to a price, and simply can't offer the potential of a better quality replacement damper that has been designed with fewer "compromises" in its design brief.

I wouldn't assume that "better quality replacement dampers" are actually *better* than OEM. Often they are not...

The reality is that a fairly reasonable quality 1 or 2 way adjustable damper is very unlikely to perform worse, and is very likely to be able to perform much better than an OEM damper.

There are plenty of instances where OEM dampers are quite good, and better than most 1- or 2-way adjustable aftermarket dampers. I stuck with the factory dampers on my AP1 all the way to the end (240k miles) because they were quite good for street and track.

And a quality 3 or 4 way damper can actually be set properly without the need for suspension motion data by an experienced (and suspension savy) driver.

What feels good and what works best are often very different...

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I wouldn't assume that "better quality replacement dampers" are actually *better* than OEM. Often they are not...

There are plenty of instances where OEM dampers are quite good, and better than most 1- or 2-way adjustable aftermarket dampers. I stuck with the factory dampers on my AP1 all the way to the end (240k miles) because they were quite good for street and track.


What feels good and what works best are often very different...

I'm yet to own a car that I have not been able to improve on OEM with quality dampers, of course there are exceptions (Porsche GT3 anyone?), but fundamentally OEM (anything) on a car is a compromise balancing many different factors by the manufacturer. Quality aftermarket can (mostly) be made with fewer compromises and more focus.

OEM dampers can be quite good, particularly on expensive cars, but how many are as good as decent Bilstein or a Koni, or Ohlins etc , in our real world cheaper cars? Are the twins standard shocks as well resolved as these?

I'll take a real world suspension tuning on real roads any day. Assesing everything (tyres, surfaces , valving, springs, driving styles, roads, etc) together is the best way to set up a cars suspension.

Arguing that adjustability is an overall negative rather than a potential positive might be a touch too pessimistic. Plenty of examples of well set up adjustable shocks on cars out there...that are able to out perform non adjustable (OEM) dampers.

I just dont think there is any realistic argument against improving damper quality if you can afford it, particularly if the car is going to be driven enthusiastically.

[Racecomp Engineering]

The trick is that dampers are complicated and it's too simplistic to assume that anything aftermarket is good. Too many think that shiny and lots of adjustment clicks and dual height adjustable coilovers are always good.

Adjustability is generally good but 2 problems arise...1. you have to know what you're doing at least a little bit and 2. adjustability is not a replacement for quality. There are plenty of adjustable shocks that let you go from soft and crappy to stiff and crappy, with nothing good in between.

I'm dialing in a set of 3 ways right now and...well it's actually really nice at the moment but it is work. It takes time and you can definitely screw it up and make it worse than a simple 1 way.

- Andrew

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

...fundamentally OEM (anything) on a car is a compromise balancing many different factors by the manufacturer. Quality aftermarket can (mostly) be made with fewer compromises and more focus.

Aftermarket is in business for the same reason as the automakers: to make money. To provide adequate performance for the least $$$ possible. Aftermarket if anything will have *more* compromises due to economies of scale. A lot of aftermarket dampers are compromised by being used on different platforms and with different spring rates. And most aftermarket dampers won't have the same level of engineering and development testing behind them that OEM dampers do.

OEM dampers can be quite good, particularly on expensive cars, but how many are as good as decent Bilstein or a Koni, or Ohlins etc , in our real world cheaper cars? Are the twins standard shocks as well resolved as these?

Those are examples of aftermarket dampers that are generally pretty well developed. For sure non-adjustable Bilsteins were a tremendous improvement over my car's stock Sachs dampers, which IMO have too much high-speed compression damping to initially feel more go-karty.

Arguing that adjustability is an overall negative rather than a potential positive might be a touch too pessimistic. Plenty of examples of well set up adjustable shocks on cars out there...that are able to out perform non adjustable (OEM) dampers.

Not arguing that adjustability is a negative. Just pointing out that for many aftermarket dampers, they'll give you a knob or two to twiddle and at the same time not develop their dampers for specific platforms based on the idea that they can be "adjusted" into something in the ballpark...

I just dont think there is any realistic argument against improving damper quality if you can afford it, particularly if the car is going to be driven enthusiastically.

I'm not arguing against improving damper quality either. Indeed I'm arguing for aftermarket dampers if going ~1" or lower. Bilsteins are a big improvement over stock PP/Sachs even keeping stock springs, and can deal with much lower springs as well.

What I am arguing is that good non-adjustable dampers are gonna be better than many, perhaps most, adjustable aftermarket coilover dampers.

[Decep]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The 1-way adjustable Tein SS coilovers never felt *anything like* right on my V8 FD! Insane high-speed compression damping, godawful ride and murder over curbing at the track, no matter what setting. They were on the car when I bought it... Quickly replaced those with single-adjustable Ohlins R&T coilovers. Fricking SWEEET! Could drive with unabated speed over potholes and flat-foot it over curbings at the track. But *still*, IMO they bled off too much, I would have liked a bit *more* high-speed damping. But adjusters only affected low-speed damping...

Having one or two damping knobs to twiddle doesn't mean you can get damping "perfect". I've had plenty of track friends forever monkeying with their damping adjusters and never finding a sweet spot...

Well yeah, you bought bottom of the barrel Tein coilovers, KW makes decent stuff for the price. I haven't been terribly impressed with Teins though I haven't tried the CSG tuned ones.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Decep

Well yeah, you bought bottom of the barrel Tein coilovers, KW makes decent stuff for the price. I haven't been terribly impressed with Teins though I haven't tried the CSG tuned ones.

Tein SS were on the FD when I bought it, never would have been my choice. Replaced them with Ohlins R&T.

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

The trick is that dampers are complicated and it's too simplistic to assume that anything aftermarket is good. Too many think that shiny and lots of adjustment clicks and dual height adjustable coilovers are always good.

Adjustability is generally good but 2 problems arise...1. you have to know what you're doing at least a little bit and 2. adjustability is not a replacement for quality. There are plenty of adjustable shocks that let you go from soft and crappy to stiff and crappy, with nothing good in between.

I'm dialing in a set of 3 ways right now and...well it's actually really nice at the moment but it is work. It takes time and you can definitely screw it up and make it worse than a simple 1 way.

- Andrew

Fully agree, the two key words with shocks are always quality and expertise.

But its also too simplistic to assume that anything adjustable is therefore going to be badly adjusted.

There is no doubt a pile of rubbish out there that should be avoided like the plague, and I dont think anyone here would be arguing for lesser quality, or knob twidling for the sake of knob twidling by anyone except the knowledgable.

But for not too much of an investment in hardware and installation you can get a genuine/noticable improvement in function over OEM, especially if you enjoy driving.

In a lot of ways not too dissimilar to car sound systems... huge amps, giant speakers, flashing lights does not automatically equal great sound, in fact the opposite many times.
In the same way an amazing and complete system, that is badly setup will also sound rubbish.
But a quality system thoughtfully installed and setup correctly is an amazing thing to listen to....and 99% of the time a huge improvemnet over OEM sound.

OEM on our cars are always going to be a compromise, as they have to cater to those who love the act of driving, but also to those who couldn't care less.