BRZ vs Cayman/Corvette

[Agent 86]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

That'd require another 2 cylinders, another 2k of available rpms, and some German magic.

I'm rather disappointed in the sound from the new fours they've started putting in the latest Boxster/Cayman. Just doesn't sing.

You are not alone regarding your opinion of the H4 sound. On Porsche forums, online magazines and video reviews that seems to be the only complaint anyone can lodge against the higher performing 718 Cayman/Boxster. I find it ironic that so many Porsche "purist" complain that they could not live with the loss of the aural experience of the 981 Cayman/Boxster, yet they drive the PDK transmission car. I can understand the sound being a big part of the driving experience, but IMO so is having a 3rd pedal, IMO.

I did not have a Porsche background. I test drove a 981 Cayman base 6 speed and a PDK 718 Cayman base. The sound in the 981 base car was not enough to impress me over the PDK 718.

The PDK isn't for me though. I traded my 2014 BRZ and bought a 718 Cayman S (6 speed manual) three weeks ago. I love it!
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[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

I find it ironic that so many Porsche "purist" complain that they could not live with the loss of the aural experience of the 981 Cayman/Boxster, yet they drive the PDK transmission car. I can understand the sound being a big part of the driving experience, but IMO so is having a 3rd pedal, IMO.

I don't think the lack of a third pedal is as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. The reality is that a manual transmission is not exclusive to purist sports cars, and it never has been -- you can get a manual transmission on a Hyundai, but that does not make a Hyundai a purist car. And a sports car not having a manual does not mean it's no longer a purist car either. But a good sounding motor and exhaust note is part of the experience, one that is hard to replicate at will.

I have tracked a variety of DCT-equipped cars -- a Cayman R, a 458 and a 911 GT3 (991) -- and not once was I complaining about not having a manual. Similarly, when wringing out my own car going through whichever canyons, while I enjoy the overall feel, it's the acceleration and cornering that I smile the most at. Yes, perfect heel-toe rev-matching brings satisfaction, but that's not specific to performance, and certainly (and hopefully) not the best sensation to have in a car. I can do that on my commute (as it's not a technique restricted to aggressive driving), and so can someone in 20 year-old Honda Civic.

At the same time, I've had plenty of fun on go-karts. No shifting, still lots of fun. And it's not totally uncommon for, say, Corvette owners to stay in first gear for a large portion (if not all) of some tighter autocross courses. Also no shifting.

[Agent 86]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

I don't think the lack of a third pedal is as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. The reality is that a manual transmission is not exclusive to purist sports cars, and it never has been -- you can get a manual transmission on a Hyundai, but that does not make a Hyundai a purist car. And a sports car not having a manual does not mean it's no longer a purist car either. But a good sounding motor and exhaust note is part of the experience, one that is hard to replicate at will.

I have tracked a variety of DCT-equipped cars -- a Cayman R, a 458 and a 911 GT3 (991) -- and not once was I complaining about not having a manual. Similarly, when wringing out my own car going through whichever canyons, while I enjoy the overall feel, it's the acceleration and cornering that I smile the most at. Yes, perfect heel-toe rev-matching brings satisfaction, but that's not specific to performance, and certainly (and hopefully) not the best sensation to have in a car. I can do that on my commute (as it's not a technique restricted to aggressive driving), and so can someone in 20 year-old Honda Civic.

At the same time, I've had plenty of fun on go-karts. No shifting, still lots of fun. And it's not totally uncommon for, say, Corvette owners to stay in first gear for a large portion (if not all) of some tighter autocross courses. Also no shifting.

When I used the word "purist", I wasn't referring to the driving experience of the car or the car itself. I was referring to a "singular" attitude held by an individual about as specific ideal.

I agree that it's not necessary to have manual transmission to reach the heights a sporting experience. By the same token, neither is sound. I've heard trucks that sound awesome. I certainly did not mean to put down those that chose the PDK.

You point out that when driving your car, you enjoy the overall feel, acceleration and cornering. That's my point, too. Sure sound is important, but it's only part of the experience (as is shifting manually). Not to mention that we all cannot agree as to what sounds good (picture if you will the 20 year old Civic with an exhaust outlet the size of a basketball).

The new Cayman/Boxster (according to those that drive much better than i can) performs at a higher level than the previous car. However, there is a segment of enthusiast that deride the 718 simply because of the turbo charged flat 4 engine and engine sound.

To me the argument is not unlike those that lambaste the twins because they claim a minivan is faster to the next traffic light.

The new 2.0 and 2.5 H4 engine and exhaust sound great to me and make a great contribution to the overall sporty nature of the car.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Porsches are great out of the box, the interior is good enough, the sound is good, the car is pretty small and nimble. It sounds like you would be content to just buy and drive one. Now that said, I think you really want a 987.2 or 981 as the earlier ones are ...kind of garbage, and the only ones you'll get for 30k are very high mileage, and probably have significant wear on the seats, brakes, transmission, engine etc.

If you buy a lower mileage twin (such as mine :P), you'll have much less car to start with. However, at half the price of a 90k mile Cayman, you would have a lot of money to just send the car to a shop and have them mod it for you, and it would take none of your time beyond buying the parts.

987.1 Porsches are not "kind of garbage". Not in the least. And around here it's easy to get a moderate mileage Cayman S for well under $30k. A quick search on Cars.com shows 5 Cayman S's with under 70k miles on sale for less than $30k (lowest being $25k). If you can find a nice FR-S for $12,500 hell I'd go for it too, lol.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

I don't think the lack of a third pedal is as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. The reality is that a manual transmission is not exclusive to purist sports cars, and it never has been -- you can get a manual transmission on a Hyundai, but that does not make a Hyundai a purist car. And a sports car not having a manual does not mean it's no longer a purist car either. But a good sounding motor and exhaust note is part of the experience, one that is hard to replicate at will.

I have tracked a variety of DCT-equipped cars -- a Cayman R, a 458 and a 911 GT3 (991) -- and not once was I complaining about not having a manual. Similarly, when wringing out my own car going through whichever canyons, while I enjoy the overall feel, it's the acceleration and cornering that I smile the most at. Yes, perfect heel-toe rev-matching brings satisfaction, but that's not specific to performance, and certainly (and hopefully) not the best sensation to have in a car. I can do that on my commute (as it's not a technique restricted to aggressive driving), and so can someone in 20 year-old Honda Civic.

At the same time, I've had plenty of fun on go-karts. No shifting, still lots of fun. And it's not totally uncommon for, say, Corvette owners to stay in first gear for a large portion (if not all) of some tighter autocross courses. Also no shifting.

well YMMV. lack of a third pedal is a big consideration and certainly part of the "performance" experience. Hell it makes the driving experience much more fun in manual econobox, at least for me. Its all different for different folks. Some love DCTs for their performance benefit and convenience. I personally loved the "slow clunky fussy when cold" shifter on my friends F360 because it was a unique and fun (for me) experience. Maybe I'm weird though

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[NLS8520]

Originally Posted by Norcalkid

I low balled a BRZ limited today(2013 with 26k on it). Didn't get it(left my #).

I was curious what was your lowball offer? I have been trying to decide if I want to buy new or clean used and just lowballed an offer as well on a 2013 limited lol.

[strmshadow84]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

The new Cayman/Boxster (according to those that drive much better than i can) performs at a higher level than the previous car. However, there is a segment of enthusiast that deride the 718 simply because of the turbo charged flat 4 engine and engine sound.

I think the reason why, is because Porsche downgraded from a H6 to a H4. When you drop down in cylinders it's usually considered a downgrade. But I also think the reason is because they see it as Porsche once again downgrading the Cayman to make that they protect the 911's status. And now your paying more for less.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been a problem if they would have started the Cayman out as a H4.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

987.1 Porsches are not "kind of garbage". Not in the least. And around here it's easy to get a moderate mileage Cayman S for well under $30k. A quick search on Cars.com shows 5 Cayman S's with under 70k miles on sale for less than $30k (lowest being $25k). If you can find a nice FR-S for $12,500 hell I'd go for it too, lol.

We've had this debate haha. The 987.2 and 981 engines are so much better, I would gladly pay the premium. It's worth the peace of mind, better fuel economy, better torque, better peak power, lower weight, and better oil system. You can never upgrade an M97 to have many of those new features.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

We've had this debate haha. The 987.2 and 981 engines are so much better, I would gladly pay the premium. It's worth the peace of mind, better fuel economy, better torque, better peak power, lower weight, and better oil system. You can never upgrade an M97 to have many of those new features.

I think your both right. My09 Cayman S definitely had a superior engine than my 06 Cayman S. But there was about 30% difference in price. Meaning for all first time Cayman seekers, that if you can swing the price difference, yes the 987.2 is better. But a 987.1 is still a damn good car. And, after owning a 987.1, 987.2 and a 981. I would say if i was going to track one, the cheaper 987.1 would likely be my choice. If i was going to turbo it (and my 987.1 eventually had the TPC Turbo kit) I would pick the 987.1 as well. In fact Mike at TPC would recommend that as well, i bet. I would go for a 987.2 or 981 if it was more of a weekend toy/dd that saw a couple of AX/track days a year.
Or money was no object. In other words this is not a right or wrong decision, I know...i have made them all. It is a "what is more right for me" decision.

In fact my 987.1 TPC Turbo was probably my funnest of the 3.

[WolfpackS2k]

^^^One reason that a lot of people are complaining (myself included) is because for most of us, the Cayman S is already damned fast (enough). A lot of people don't care, or don't want, to sacrifice refinement and aural delights for marginal-to-moderate increases in speed. To a lot of people shaving half a second off the 0-60 or 1/4 mile time isn't worth the sacrifice. To say nothing of the smaller engine adding 50-100 lb in weight gain.

^^It's a pretty big price premium though. 987.2 CS's are still $40k+, and they're harder to find. My previous quick search (that yielded 5 CSs) was for a 100 mile search radius. To even find a 987.2 CS for sale I had to widen my search to 250 miles. And with a DI system you'll have to worry about carbon build up as well...

I mean price no object I'd own a GT4, 987R, 981 GTS or 987.2 CS in that order. But all of those are way too rich for my blood

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by strmshadow84

I think the reason why, is because Porsche downgraded from a H6 to a H4. When you drop down in cylinders it's usually considered a downgrade. But I also think the reason is because they see it as Porsche once again downgrading the Cayman to make that they protect the 911's status. And now your paying more for less.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been a problem if they would have started the Cayman out as a H4.

True. Some people already feel that way about BMWs, with the switch from whatever motor to a smaller one with two fewer cylinders and a turbo (or two), even though in most cases the car accelerates more quickly and gets better fuel economy.

[WolfpackS2k]

^and sounds like an 80s diesel engine in the process

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I mean price no object I'd own a GT4, 987R, 981 GTS or 987.2 CS in that order.

Yep, I agree with this list/sequence completely. Budget and usage dictate this decision a lot. They are all great.

The steering feedback from the revised EPS on the 718s is better than the 981 models. Not 987 good, but definitely better.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^and sounds like an 80s diesel engine in the process

It's not THAT bad. My brother has a 2015 BMW 320i, and back in the day our household had a 1985 Mercedes 300D Turbo Diesel. Not sure if I draw the correlation between the two sounds.