Picked up the new ride tonight

[Yardjass]

Wait, so let me get this straight. A forum full of enthusiasts, whose vehicles have a far higher manual take rate than the overall rate for any modernized country, can be assumed to have skills with a manual transmission related to the manual take rate of their respective country/region?


Is that the same mindset that believes disliking the helper spring is a skill problem, and the desire to feel the clutch more has no merit when seeking more driving engagement?


I'm just wondering because I too, find the stock clutch to be less than optimal compared to nearly every other manual vehicle I've ever driven. I may remove that spring and see how it feels, unless of course, there is a more reasonable rational against it.

[nitro_alltrac]

Originally Posted by humfrz

DANG, there nitro_alltrac ........ was this the last MT vehicle you came out of ...... ??




humfrz

Nope. Most current one is my 92 Celica All Trac. I

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Wait, so let me get this straight. A forum full of enthusiasts, whose vehicles have a far higher manual take rate than the overall rate for any modernized country, can be assumed to have skills with a manual transmission related to the manual take rate of their respective country/region?
Is that the same mindset that believes disliking the helper spring is a skill problem, and the desire to feel the clutch more has no merit when seeking more driving engagement?
I'm just wondering because I too, find the stock clutch to be less than optimal compared to nearly every other manual vehicle I've ever driven. I may remove that spring and see how it feels, unless of course, there is a more reasonable rational against it.

It's not really take up rates, it's culture. Not just "car culture" but everyday life culture. Over here everyone drives "stick", even 90yo grannies drive stick. They were raised being driven around in manual cars, they first drove in a manual, took lessons in a manual, took their test in a manual and their first car was most likely a manual. All their family and friends drive manuals. They borrow each others cars frequently. A clutch is a clutch is a clutch. Most people are surprised when they see an auto, it's a novelty. I'd even risk saying that most people have never owned an auto in their life.

It's changing though with more and more hybrid auto's and electronic/auto gearboxes arriving from manufacturers in the last 5 to 10 years. I think the auto ownership is now as high as 18%. I expect for a considerable time yet people will favour doing lessons and a test in a manual as if you do the test in an auto you are not allowed to drive manual in the UK, it explicitly states "Auto" on the license.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a skill question or issue, but if instead of the manual take up rate of this car in respect to North America you looked at the spread of "hours driving stick" or "general stick driving experience", you will probably find that while there are the few old hands with tens of thousands of hours driving stick I would expect the bell curve would be much lower. In the UK most people mid driving career have never driven anything but a manual.

So there is possibly a skill anomaly, yes. The other aspect is "speciality". To you guys a manual is special, being enthusiastic you probably googled, forumed and youtubed all your questions about this and that. "Things not to do in a manual", "How not to abuse your clutch", "Double clutching", "Rev matching", etc. etc. It's all very exciting and mostly rubbish or unnecessary. I did the same recently when I had to borrow an auto for 3 weeks. "What happens if I put it in N while rolling and try and put it back into D?" etc.

I expect, and gathering from what I read on here I'm correct, that a manual car is a specialist item for you, you guys obsess about the details and put far too much weight into the finer details as if these cars where not designed to be beat on by a 60 yo English Mum and her teenage son and survive for at least 10 years. They don't need wrapping in cotton wool and treated like a crystal ornament. It's just a car and not an American built one either! It will take a fair amount of punishment without failing and the things that will wear and fail are meant to wear and fail. Replacing a clutch is so common here pretty much 99% of local mechanic shops will do it in an hour while you wait. They will either have a compatible clutch in stock or can order one the same day. It's no more of a "job" than getting your brake pads changed.

Case in point. The clutch feels absolutely normal to me. I can drive very smoothly with it. If it lurches it's because I did something wrong. Several other people have driven my car, getting out of old wrecks or nice Audi's and not one of them mentioned anything about the clutch being weird, non of the lurched or jerks. Most commented the car was incredible smooth.

As to removing the spring being a preference item to change how the clutch feels and behaves, fair enough, but at your own perile, if it wasn't meant to be there they wouldn't have put it there. My point is that the clutch in the car is fine. Assuming the clutch is the same both sides of the Atlantic. It does not need the spring removed to be "corrected" in some way, it's not broken.

Traffic and journey types may also have an effect. I can spend an hour sitting on the clutch in the mornings on a bad traffic day. Bite, roll, release, brake, wait... Bite, roll, release, wait.... Moving 10 feet at a time in stop go, bumper to bumper traffic. My foot goes numb, my calf muscle hurts. Trying to build a gap and keep rolling at 4mph only gets you so much of a break from time to time as do longer pauses when you can go neutral+hand brake and relax your feet. The fact there is a helper spring there I'm glad of. (I often dream of an Auto some mornings. Actually I'd even take a little electric motor for those situations.)

[Dake]

It's a good point, I think I'm somewhere in the middle.

I learned on my mom's MGB. I drove a Celica for years and then had a couple of different autos before getting back into a manual with the FR-S. Even when I was driving autos though, when I visited my folks I'd tool around in their Z3 or a BMW 330. Or I'd borrow my buddies old manual F-150 pickup, and climbing into any of those vehicles it was like riding a bike - not a moment's thought. Sure, they each had slightly different feels, but I was smooth in them all with no effort.

There is something noticeably different about the clutch in the FR-S compared to any other stick I've driven. Good, bad, or otherwise it's there - and five years in I still occasionally have starts I jokingly call "first time driver" starts! I'm not going to bother changing anything, but it's there. It's not because it's broken, or defective - but for some it might be enough to seek relief.

Maybe the lack of comment in more manual heavy cultures is less about the lack of difference and more about the fact that it's an expected difference like headlight stalk placement, or radio dials. It's a different car, the clutch feels different, who cares, just drive it?

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by paulca

Why is it the only people I hear complaining about the clutch is the North American guys?

Has to be something to do with you being a nation(s) of Auto drivers.

Also new clutches are usually very light and stiffen up as the clutch springs age and harden. Much like guitar strings starting out loose and springy with a rich sound and going stiffer and deader as the metal hardens into it's new stretched shape.

I think in the UK we are so used to jumping out of one manual into another that we just get used to clutches being different in different vehicles. Not just different models/brands, but different individual vehicles within the same model/brand feel different.

I also expect it's a bit of "blame the tool" by those with limited clutch control ability. They get into an unfamiliar manual car and are a bit lurchy so it can't possibly be their lack of clutch control it must therefore be a problem with the clutch.

(I'm bored at work so thought I'd start a bit of a war for lolz )

You are at it again - UK drivers are so much skilled than US since they drive a stick shift.

Driving skill is not just about engaging the clutch. Using the transmission efficiently is just a part of complete driving skill and it is more about knowing when and where to shift and which gear to drive efficient/fast. It doesn't matter how you shift and probably a semi-auto shifts faster than your foot/hand combination. In any case my dog is probably more skilled than your fellow drivers. See

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by paulca

It's not really take up rates, it's culture. Not just "car culture" but everyday life culture. Over here everyone drives "stick", even 90yo grannies drive stick. They were raised being driven around in manual cars, they first drove in a manual, took lessons in a manual, took their test in a manual and their first car was most likely a manual. All their family and friends drive manuals. They borrow each others cars frequently. A clutch is a clutch is a clutch. Most people are surprised when they see an auto, it's a novelty. I'd even risk saying that most people have never owned an auto in their life.

It's changing though with more and more hybrid auto's and electronic/auto gearboxes arriving from manufacturers in the last 5 to 10 years. I think the auto ownership is now as high as 18%. I expect for a considerable time yet people will favour doing lessons and a test in a manual as if you do the test in an auto you are not allowed to drive manual in the UK, it explicitly states "Auto" on the license.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a skill question or issue, but if instead of the manual take up rate of this car in respect to North America you looked at the spread of "hours driving stick" or "general stick driving experience", you will probably find that while there are the few old hands with tens of thousands of hours driving stick I would expect the bell curve would be much lower. In the UK most people mid driving career have never driven anything but a manual.

So there is possibly a skill anomaly, yes. The other aspect is "speciality". To you guys a manual is special, being enthusiastic you probably googled, forumed and youtubed all your questions about this and that. "Things not to do in a manual", "How not to abuse your clutch", "Double clutching", "Rev matching", etc. etc. It's all very exciting and mostly rubbish or unnecessary. I did the same recently when I had to borrow an auto for 3 weeks. "What happens if I put it in N while rolling and try and put it back into D?" etc.

I expect, and gathering from what I read on here I'm correct, that a manual car is a specialist item for you, you guys obsess about the details and put far too much weight into the finer details as if these cars where not designed to be beat on by a 60 yo English Mum and her teenage son and survive for at least 10 years. They don't need wrapping in cotton wool and treated like a crystal ornament. It's just a car and not an American built one either! It will take a fair amount of punishment without failing and the things that will wear and fail are meant to wear and fail. Replacing a clutch is so common here pretty much 99% of local mechanic shops will do it in an hour while you wait. They will either have a compatible clutch in stock or can order one the same day. It's no more of a "job" than getting your brake pads changed.

Case in point. The clutch feels absolutely normal to me. I can drive very smoothly with it. If it lurches it's because I did something wrong. Several other people have driven my car, getting out of old wrecks or nice Audi's and not one of them mentioned anything about the clutch being weird, non of the lurched or jerks. Most commented the car was incredible smooth.

As to removing the spring being a preference item to change how the clutch feels and behaves, fair enough, but at your own perile, if it wasn't meant to be there they wouldn't have put it there. My point is that the clutch in the car is fine. Assuming the clutch is the same both sides of the Atlantic. It does not need the spring removed to be "corrected" in some way, it's not broken.

Traffic and journey types may also have an effect. I can spend an hour sitting on the clutch in the mornings on a bad traffic day. Bite, roll, release, brake, wait... Bite, roll, release, wait.... Moving 10 feet at a time in stop go, bumper to bumper traffic. My foot goes numb, my calf muscle hurts. Trying to build a gap and keep rolling at 4mph only gets you so much of a break from time to time as do longer pauses when you can go neutral+hand brake and relax your feet. The fact there is a helper spring there I'm glad of. (I often dream of an Auto some mornings. Actually I'd even take a little electric motor for those situations.)

Truth be told, I couldn't find jack squat about the take rate in Europe for manuals. Lacking any useful google results, I looked at several articles for worldwide and assumed pretty much everywhere is heavily automatic dominated with the exception of cars specifically for the third world, which would be made as cheaply as possible, and therefore, manual. If you could produce some evidence to the take rate in Europe, I'd very much like to see it.


I'm gonna play devil's advocate on the "Don't remove it. If it wasn't meant to be there, it wouldn't" argument though. There's a reason for everything on these cars. They are as close to perfection as the companies could get, based on the criteria that the companies have laid out for themselves, and the regulatory constraints that they have to consider. This criteria at times, is far different from what you or I would value in a vehicle. There are many instances when changing the OEM configuration is not only completely fine, but desirable. What proof is there that helper spring removal is any different?

[nitro_alltrac]

Ok, enough with "we're better drivers because we have more manuals" and "no, you suck". This started because I made a comment that, for me, the clutch is too light and vague. I'd say ask about anyone that came from a turbo car with a performance clutch or can from a V8 car and you'd get the same response. Just my opinion and after 5 days of driving the car I still feel the same way. Love the car though.

I could give a rats ass about manual take rates in the rest of the world versus the US. Yes, there are very few manuals sold in the US. The majority of Americans are lazy and like to drive automatics. End of story. This is supposed to be an enthusiast site, so why the hell are we bickering about take rates and what country has better manual drivers?? I don't come here for that kind of bullshit. If I wanted that, I'd go to a Honda site.

Yes, I'm old and losing patience with where this has gone.

End of rant. Get off my lawn!

[Overdrive]

I really do have to agree with you about the clutch pedal feel when I drove a manual FR-S. For me the shifter was awesome, probably the best one I've ever used, but the clutch didn't make for good, smooth engagement.

My longest standing manual car is a 20-year-old Boxster, and the clutch on that is pretty heavy compared to other cars, but it's easy to get used to, and it's very consistent. I had a manual Focus hatch for a little while, and the pedal on that was super light by comparison. But I'd drive the Boxster for a little while, get back into the Focus, and damn near kick the pedal through the floorboard for the first minute or two of driving it. Flip-side, after spending months driving the Focus and getting kind of lazy/sloppy as a result, I stalled the Boxster like a newbie pulling it out of the garage for the first time.

I'd say anything you choose to do to improve the feel of the 86 clutch is worthwhile.

[paulca]

I didn't say we were better drivers. I said we would have more experience with clutches.

There are many articles on uptake rates if you google "how many automatic cars in uk"

The 20 year old boxer might well have an old cable pulled clutch. Making it a heavy clutch. Was the focus relatively new? Clutch pedals in new cars (or with new clutches) tend to be very light feeling. When I got the clutch changed in a 2002 Clio with 65k miles my foot nearly went through the floor when I got back into it. A year later and it was back to being pretty heavy. The brand new GT86 my foot hit the bulkhead pretty fast and I actually remarked, "MMmm, new clutch!", I don't know what causes this, clutch cable wear on a cabled clutch? The metal of the clutch finger springs hardening?

Some cars have heavy clutches, some light, some long, some short. Some have very narrow bite points, others are wide. Older cars tend to have heavier clutches, younger ones light. Larger cars and engines tend to have heavier clutches, though this is lessening with hydraulic clutches becoming pretty much standard. In the UK most people just accept this and deal with it. It's just a clutch.

If you think removing the spring makes the clutch feel better to you, go ahead and remove/change it, but there is nothing wrong with the GT86 clutch and if it's jerky that's the driver. If you have trained your foot to use one type of clutch and want to make every other clutch feel the same, good luck with that.

This is all still assuming you guys don't get a different clutch setup. I could come over and drive one of your cars and suddenly agree with you. Unlikely but possible. I have heard one or two people in the UK group changing the clutch height and possibly one changing/removing the spring.

[Overdrive]

I'm not really gonna jump in the pool with you here beyond saying I was just stating my own feelings on the matter, to no one in particular, not looking to start any debates or say my experience is all there is to everything, or that the 86 clutch is bad/jerky, so please don't imply such things or pull me into this whole thing of whoever thinks whoever else is a better driver by continental location. I honestly don't care about any of that. All I said was I didn't like how it engaged compared to other cars I've driven, and I see no problem in doing things to improve that for oneself. That's just my opinion. No one ever said you have to just leave a car as it is and adjust yourself to it, or no one would ever modify a thing on a car. It doesn't make them a bad/poor driver for doing so.

But what the heck, I'll answer some questions. The Focus was an 03 with twice as many miles on it as the Boxster, so no, not at all new, no real difference in clutch design, and when you get right down to it it's simply the difference in how they set up a sports car then vs. an everyman car, and I completely understand and expect that. The Focus is supposed to be easier to get used to and drive than something like the Boxster of the same era, so I'm not surprised that they feel significantly different. It's just how they are. To me shifting the Focus was a very lazy thing having such a light pedal and unexact gearbox. I honestly wouldn't want the Boxster clutch to feel like the one in the Focus because it would make for a less enjoyable drive. In the 86 I thought the shifter was great, but that the clutch pedal feel didn't really match up well with it.

Just my opinion. Not up for debate.

[nitro_alltrac]

Originally Posted by paulca

I didn't say we were better drivers. I said we would have more experience with clutches.

There are many articles on uptake rates if you google "how many automatic cars in uk"

The 20 year old boxer might well have an old cable pulled clutch. Making it a heavy clutch. Was the focus relatively new? Clutch pedals in new cars (or with new clutches) tend to be very light feeling. When I got the clutch changed in a 2002 Clio with 65k miles my foot nearly went through the floor when I got back into it. A year later and it was back to being pretty heavy. The brand new GT86 my foot hit the bulkhead pretty fast and I actually remarked, "MMmm, new clutch!", I don't know what causes this, clutch cable wear on a cabled clutch? The metal of the clutch finger springs hardening?

Some cars have heavy clutches, some light, some long, some short. Some have very narrow bite points, others are wide. Older cars tend to have heavier clutches, younger ones light. Larger cars and engines tend to have heavier clutches, though this is lessening with hydraulic clutches becoming pretty much standard. In the UK most people just accept this and deal with it. It's just a clutch.

If you think removing the spring makes the clutch feel better to you, go ahead and remove/change it, but there is nothing wrong with the GT86 clutch and if it's jerky that's the driver. If you have trained your foot to use one type of clutch and want to make every other clutch feel the same, good luck with that.

This is all still assuming you guys don't get a different clutch setup. I could come over and drive one of your cars and suddenly agree with you. Unlikely but possible. I have heard one or two people in the UK group changing the clutch height and possibly one changing/removing the spring.

Take Elsa's advice and "Let it go".

[nitro_alltrac]

Pulled the spring this morning. It does feel better. Feels more what I'm used to in the All Trac/GT4.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by nitro_alltrac

Pulled the spring this morning. It does feel better. Feels more what I'm used to in the All Trac/GT4.

OMG ...... there went your warranty .....!!!!!!!!!!!!








humfrz

[nitro_alltrac]

Originally Posted by humfrz

OMG ...... there went your warranty .....!!!!!!!!!!!!








humfrz

I'm a rebel. What can I say!