04-10-2021, 02:02 PM | #197 | |
The Dictater
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: '13 Red Scion FRS
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 9,432
Thanks: 26,115
Thanked 12,433 Times in 6,148 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
The point is that while you can point to some similarity between all these moral dilemmas, they each are in a completely separate context, and thus change the topic of debate. The speaker has attempted to sway our opinion by arguing against another problem entirely, then trying to associate that with the current topic. Put another way, he presented a different argument to which he believes his audience agrees with him, then presented the original argument to which he hopes to convince his audience to agree with him. The primary connection between them is that he has taken a position on both arguments that he feels is consistent with some definition of morality. His personal position is not a robust logical connection. Hence it is a straw man. There are plenty of other valid reasons to change our meat production and consumption practices, but using a logical fallacy is not a great start to your presentation. |
|
04-10-2021, 02:06 PM | #198 |
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: '15 ultramarine
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,194
Thanks: 5,451
Thanked 18,240 Times in 8,609 Posts
Mentioned: 155 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Sapphireho For This Useful Post: | soundman98 (04-10-2021) |
04-10-2021, 02:14 PM | #199 | |
The Dictater
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: '13 Red Scion FRS
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 9,432
Thanks: 26,115
Thanked 12,433 Times in 6,148 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Spuds For This Useful Post: | Captain Snooze (04-10-2021), MICHAEL450f (04-11-2021) |
04-10-2021, 03:06 PM | #200 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,805 Times in 3,299 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
What you are calling a straw man argument against his statements, I consider his claims to be intellectually consistent, and I find your claim that his argument is a straw man is a case of special pleading for humans. You have simply stated humans are different because we have higher thought processes, but that very fact could also imply that we can choose to get our foods in the most ethical way possible, yet we do the exact opposite. Thus, you are using a logic fallacy to refute what you believe to be a logic fallacy, but you have not proven his fallacy was false. At worst, he is using an extreme or relatable analogy because he wants to elicit a predictable response or sentiment because morality exists on a continuum and is not always so black or white. Just because the example is extreme, doesn't mean he is saying they are equal. For instance, if I describe how a murder may tie up the legs of a victim, hang them upside-down, cut their throat and allow them to hang there spasming in the air then most people would be horrified, but it isn't just because that happened to a human; it is because how it was done because if I said the murder gave them a sedative until the person went unconscious and then stopped breathing then that too would be bad, but far less horrific, and yet, the cow hanging by its legs, while different than a human, can be also seen as a horrific act. That is the nature of his analogies. I think it is harder for you to special plead why the cow is different than the human, more than it would be for him to argue why the example is not a straw man. Well, the thread is about the planet, and eating animals has global ramifications for the planet like I have discussed, which is methane production, CO2 production, deforestation, ecological disruption, etc. On top of that, wide spread industrial farming is unethical. I have already conceded, as do most animal based eaters and vegans, that hunting causes less suffering. If someone has a farm or has chickens in their backyard that they humanly raise to slaughter or for eggs then few vegans would find it worth their time to argue against such practices, when the vast, vast, vast majority of meat production is on an industrial, unethical scale. We can address the idea that we should end industrial farming, set aside more pasture land for animals, pass laws against the types of animal cruelty that exists, and I would be for that, but then I wouldn't because it would still mean huge destruction of ecosystems and greater pollution for the planet.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
|
|
04-10-2021, 03:08 PM | #201 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,805 Times in 3,299 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_an...on_Act_of_2018 Quote:
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
|
||
04-10-2021, 03:28 PM | #202 | |
ProCrastinationConsultant
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: '14 Ranger, '18 Tacoma 4Dr LB
Location: chicago-ish
Posts: 11,330
Thanks: 35,240
Thanked 13,673 Times in 6,781 Posts
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
sure, i'll try it. i asked at checkers, and they said they didn't serve it. is it more of a sit-in restaurant thing like veal? because i'm doing takeout only right now.
__________________
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time"
|
|
04-10-2021, 04:05 PM | #203 |
The Dictater
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: '13 Red Scion FRS
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 9,432
Thanks: 26,115
Thanked 12,433 Times in 6,148 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Alright @Irace86.2.0, lets start over. I'm first going to present a summary of one logical argument in favor of people adopting veganism.
1. Causing unnecessary suffering is amoral. 2. Cruelty to animals causes unnecessary suffering of the animal. 3. Factory meat farms are cruel to animals. 4. Factory meat farms exist because the large demand for meat. 5. Vegans do not add to the demand for meat. 6. Veganism(?) is a morally responsible method of nourishment. Now, allow me to present a straw man argument. 1. Causing unnecessary suffering is amoral. 2. Cruelty to animals causes unnecessary suffering of the animal. 3. It is cruel to make dogs fight each other for entertainment. 4. The people who engage in dog fighting activities (not air combat) are engaging in an amoral activity. 5. Eating meat is also engaging in an amoral activity. I can follow the first thread of thinking. I can also argue against each point in that if I choose to. The video basically started with the second thread of thinking. The reason it is a straw man argument is that it links 2 different contexts that have the same root of thought, but circumvents a number of difficult arguments in the first thread with perceptively easier arguments in the other thread. That jump from 4 to 5 has no substance that can be argued. |
04-10-2021, 05:04 PM | #204 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,805 Times in 3,299 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Antagonist 1. Choosing to eat animals is a personal choice. 2. Personal choices aren't about morals. 3. Personal choices are about desires. 4. I desire to eat meat therefore eating meat is a moral personal choice. This is false in the A then B context and in the circular reasoning context. Protagonist...challenges line 2 and 3. 1. Some personal choices are falsely claimed to be personal. 2. It is not a personal choice when a choice involves another creature, especially when that choice involves the suffering of that creature. 3. Choosing to harm a person or dog is immoral because there is suffering. 4. Therefore, choosing to harm a person or dog is not a personal choice. 5. People claim that choosing to eat animals is a personal choice. 6. Eating animals leads to animal suffering. 7. Needless animal suffering is immoral. 8. Therefore, the choice of needlessly eating animals is not a personal choice, and it is immoral.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
|
|
04-10-2021, 05:30 PM | #205 |
Because compromise ®
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Red Herring
Location: australia
Posts: 7,723
Thanks: 3,993
Thanked 9,346 Times in 4,127 Posts
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Different people have different views on what is good.
__________________
My car is completely stock except for all the mods.
|
04-10-2021, 05:39 PM | #206 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,805 Times in 3,299 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Which is why I pointed out that such a blanket philosophy would be stupid, but obviously this is in the context of a narrow yet broad conversation. Narrow in subject matter, yet broad in how it applies to many and not the few. For instance, for the few, I’m sure if someone wanted to eat an endangered animal or some neighbor’s pet then that might cross a line. Or if someone thought it was fine to eat a cow’s ear and discard the rest or wear a fur coat made out of Dalmatians then they might face some cultural backlash. Shoot a bald eagle and hold it up proudly as a trophy and many might not like it, but to each their own, no? Obviously we can see the few examples nullifies the validity of such a blanket statement.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
|
04-10-2021, 07:28 PM | #207 | |
Because compromise ®
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Red Herring
Location: australia
Posts: 7,723
Thanks: 3,993
Thanked 9,346 Times in 4,127 Posts
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Your point is taken/acknowledged.
__________________
My car is completely stock except for all the mods.
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Captain Snooze For This Useful Post: | Irace86.2.0 (04-10-2021) |
04-10-2021, 11:54 PM | #208 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,805 Times in 3,299 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Changing gears, there is a giant Antartica glacier that is 120,000 square miles, which is the size of New Mexico, and scientists have discovered that it is melting much faster than they thought. If this glacier breaks up into the ocean then we will see an immediate 1.5-3 foot rise in sea level and possibly worse.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/earther...1846650385/amp Quote:
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
|
|
04-11-2021, 01:22 AM | #209 | |
Feeling like thinking....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: CNY
Posts: 1,664
Thanks: 1,664
Thanked 2,433 Times in 1,064 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
We are omnivores by nature. Our teeth and biological makeup prove that beyond question. I choose to not defy nature. If you choose otherwise, I have absolutely no problem with that. I have also sheltered and rehabilitated countless animals, worked on dairy farms, scooped newborn calves out of manure gutters, and given lifelong homes to thirteen cats and six beloved canine friends. I have no patience for those who are cruel to animals. I also have no patience for those who view their views as the only acceptable views. My moral compass includes a healthy dose of humility, heaping piles of gratitude for the blessings bestowed upon me, and motivation to be as helpful as I can to others. Forcing my will, my beliefs, and my opinions on others, outside of raising my children in their childhood, isn't my place. The Golden Rule is certainly a great guideline. Would either of you appreciate being lectured and admonished as you have been doing here? Live, and let live. Change the things you feel need changing by example and through kindness.
__________________
Drive like everyone's life around you depends on it...
|
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MuseChaser For This Useful Post: | Irace86.2.0 (04-11-2021), Spuds (04-11-2021) |
04-11-2021, 03:58 AM | #210 | |
Because compromise ®
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Red Herring
Location: australia
Posts: 7,723
Thanks: 3,993
Thanked 9,346 Times in 4,127 Posts
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Depends on how the admonishment was delivered. The result of having differing views is that people are confronted. So either we all agree on the same thing, which is not possible/likely, or we have differing views which we are allowed to express, be argued against and maybe learn to appreciate a different point of view without being offended or agree with. But that's just my opinion lol. *Researches Golden Rule*
__________________
My car is completely stock except for all the mods.
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Captain Snooze For This Useful Post: | Irace86.2.0 (04-11-2021) |
Tags |
youguysneedlives |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Planet Earth: The Car Enthusiast | sniffpetrol | Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions | 1 | 02-03-2018 10:54 PM |
Planet Eclipse Geo2 | Gt86_nick | Miscellaneous | 0 | 11-01-2014 10:53 PM |
Planet Audio 2250D amplifier | Noob4Life | Audio/Visual, Electronics, Infotainment, NAV | 1 | 09-16-2013 07:33 AM |
Like saving the planet? read this | carbonBLUE | Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] | 7 | 02-14-2013 06:09 PM |