Long term E85 use

[redrocket89]

Originally Posted by guybo

I was talking to my father-in-law about E85 and running alcohol. He's been a mechanic longer than I have been alive and works for himself doing full car restorations. He knows his shit.

He ran karts in the 80's for his kids (one of whom is my wife) and he told me about converting the gas powered karts to alcohol and what he had to do and the problems with it. But they made a lot more power than the other karts. He said the oil gets thin and needs to b changed out, it dries out the rings and anything rubber has to be watched and replaced often. There was a lot of stuff he had to do. Of course modern engines are designed for some ethanol, but the question is- how much is safe to run long term in an engine not specifically designed for it?

I'm sure for relatively short term use it's fine and I don't look down on anyone who uses E85. It is a cool mod and makes power. I'm really conservative about this sort of thing and modding in general. I like to stick to the safe stuff, but that's just me.

That's exactly my thoughts on this. And I'm sure people that have read into the thread maybe thinking, damn this guys wishy washy. But my original intentions behind this was to see if there where other like minded people on the subject. To me yes we have the capability of doing so but at what cost. More maintenance and maybe a shorter engine component life. At what point is the added horsepower worth it. Yes I will have the ability to flash to this mod, but I'm leaning towards my original thought of the engine not being made for it. Just because you could use a spoon to dig a hole doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job. I'm curious for other people to chime in as well. I ran 110 octane in Dirtbike's and there was always a maintenance upkeep


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[Rougenite]

Dunno, I've run e85 or high octane fuel in 2 of my last 3 cars, with the third using 92 and water/meth. Combined total of about 200k miles. Just changed oil a little sooner, monitored the ECU (AFR/Knock, whatever) and it was fine.

Never had any issues with seals or fuel lines failing. Cars had other issues...like too much boost, drivetrain go boom, etc.

Currently running E85 with a flex fuel kit and the OFT. Have about 1500 miles on it. I do agree putting a tank of 92/93 every once and a while is a good thing to do.

If there is a possibility of E85 actually causing real harm to the engine, I'd like to see some trend analysis that points to it.

[eherschend]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

This.
All I see is a bunch of speculation. "It shouldn't be a problem". "It has worked for 40k miles so it might be able to go 200." Cool, have fun with your E85 tune. I hope it isn't your daily driver that you rely on and if it isn't, I really hope you use fuel stabilizer.

And this is also speculation.


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[504]

^ Rekt

Even the concept of gravity is still a theory so people will never be happy

Ethanol is a natural solvent, it's used everywhere and is even consumed. It IS less corrosive than petrol.

This however doesn't mean it won't interact with different substances in undesirable ways such as rubber. It's known that all cars are designed for some form of ethanol intake but based on the varying fuels around the world particularly Brazil which relies on nearly 100% ethanol, it most likely isn't feasible to run different rubber for different markets. Again, as per the foundation of this thread; speculation

I've been running E85 for 3 years and regularly check injectors and recently checked fuel pump with no signs of physical alteration. You'd think that something exposed for 3 years will show something physical. Even if it were "decaying" no one knows the rate of decay which is also important

[shaynek]

I ran my car on E85 for 30K miles. All you have to do is change the oil a bit more frequently if you are not using an E85 compatible oil. every month run a tank of 91. that will prevent any corrosion build up. Never leave E85 in the tank for more than a week if you're not planning to drive the car. When I was installing my supercharger my valves looked like they were new. hope this helps

[steve99]

Originally Posted by guybo

I was talking to my father-in-law about E85 and running alcohol. He's been a mechanic longer than I have been alive and works for himself doing full car restorations. He knows his shit.

He ran karts in the 80's for his kids (one of whom is my wife) and he told me about converting the gas powered karts to alcohol and what he had to do and the problems with it. But they made a lot more power than the other karts. He said the oil gets thin and needs to b changed out, it dries out the rings and anything rubber has to be watched and replaced often. There was a lot of stuff he had to do. Of course modern engines are designed for some ethanol, but the question is- how much is safe to run long term in an engine not specifically designed for it?

I'm sure for relatively short term use it's fine and I don't look down on anyone who uses E85. It is a cool mod and makes power. I'm really conservative about this sort of thing and modding in general. I like to stick to the safe stuff, but that's just me.

The main point here is "he ran karts back in the 80's".

Yes back then ethanol was a problem for many engines as a lot of the rubber and plastic components in fuel systems were not compatabable with ethanol even at E10 levels and this dis cause problens back then

Also oils were not designed for ethanol fuels back then so that was another issue


In addition old fuel tank systems were vented to atmosphere so it was possible for moisture in the air to condense or be absorbed by the ethanol in tank causing corrosin and issue

, However modern fuel systems like ours are completly sealed ( notice the whoosh when you open fuel cap) so nothing gets in or our so no moisture condensation issues with E85 unless you leave the fuel cap off or something.

Also modern fuel ststems are designed to be ethanol tolerant all modern cars are generally designed to accept E10 fuels so the compents are ethaol tolerant.
Yes E85 is higher consentration but the E10-15 limit is mainly due to the standard ecu programming fueling compensation limits.

Same with storage if you store e85 in sealed non vented containers no problem.
Also a lot of people confuse Methaol with Ethanol, yes methanol is far more agressive than ethanol, but E85 is ethanol.

Modern oils ie SN or GF5 are specificlly rated for E85 use so thats no longer an issue.

No one can give you a 100% guarantee, but guys have been running e85 for 3 years plus and 100'000 plus miles no issues.


cars fuels and oils have come a long way since the 80's, i was there :-)

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by eherschend

And this is also speculation.

No, this is science. I don't need to start citing sources for all of the problems that even just E10 ethanol fuel have caused in engines over the years. We all know these issues as fact. Another fact is if the OEM could through no additional effort of their own, stamp a certification on it for E85, they would. Without that certification, you use the stuff in a way that it wasn't designed at your own risk, and you shouldn't be surprised when something eventually gets messed up.


Based on the time that it took for problems to show up on a lot of 90's cars, a car that only goes back to a 2013 model year running E85 for 100k miles tells us absolutely nothing. That's a very frequently used vehicle, and sitting matters with ethanol fuels. So does time. That sort of frequent use over a few years would not produce the same results as a 2013 car with 5k original miles and ethanol use, nor a ten year old car with the same 100k miles.


I guess my main point is when people say, "well I used x for x years and had no problems" as if their single data point means anything at all, it is not to be taken seriously in any way. Hey guys, my grandmother smoked 2 packs a day and lived to be 94. I guess we can all do whatever we want and not have to worry about lung cancer.

Originally Posted by 504

^ Rekt

Even the concept of gravity is still a theory so people will never be happy

Ethanol is a natural solvent, it's used everywhere and is even consumed. It IS less corrosive than petrol.

This however doesn't mean it won't interact with different substances in undesirable ways such as rubber. It's known that all cars are designed for some form of ethanol intake but based on the varying fuels around the world particularly Brazil which relies on nearly 100% ethanol, it most likely isn't feasible to run different rubber for different markets. Again, as per the foundation of this thread; speculation

I've been running E85 for 3 years and regularly check injectors and recently checked fuel pump with no signs of physical alteration. You'd think that something exposed for 3 years will show something physical. Even if it were "decaying" no one knows the rate of decay which is also important

The concept of gravity can be supported with scientific proof. Somebody on a car forum doing something against the design and instructions of the OEM and getting away with it, has not yet been. Show me the manufacturer's certification on the OEM injectors, fuel pump, the spec of the rubber lines, etc. that prove that our entire fuel system can handle ethanol fuels or you are wrong. Just because you can get away with it for some amount of time doesn't mean it is okay.


But, you guys feel free to prove me wrong by running an E85 garage queen without fuel stabilizer or a 10-15 year E85 daily driver and feel free to come call me stupid if it works out. I guess we'll see who really gets the last laugh.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by 504

Even the concept of gravity is still a theory so people will never be happy

Speaking of "Rekt" it sounds like you don't understand what a scientific theory is. Go sit in the corner while the adults talk.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Speaking of "Rekt" is sounds like you don't understand what a scientific theory is. Go sit in the corner while the adults talk.

I'm glad someone on here gets it.

[eherschend]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

No, this is science. I don't need to start citing sources for all of the problems that even just E10 ethanol fuel have caused in engines over the years. We all know these issues as fact. Another fact is if the OEM could through no additional effort of their own, stamp a certification on it for E85, they would. Without that certification, you use the stuff in a way that it wasn't designed at your own risk, and you shouldn't be surprised when something eventually gets messed up.


Based on the time that it took for problems to show up on a lot of 90's cars, a car that only goes back to a 2013 model year running E85 for 100k miles tells us absolutely nothing. That's a very frequently used vehicle, and sitting matters with ethanol fuels. So does time. That sort of frequent use over a few years would not produce the same results as a 2013 car with 5k original miles and ethanol use, nor a ten year old car with the same 100k miles.


I guess my main point is when people say, "well I used x for x years and had no problems" as if their single data point means anything at all, it is not to be taken seriously in any way. Hey guys, my grandmother smoked 2 packs a day and lived to be 94. I guess we can all do whatever we want and not have to worry about lung cancer.






The concept of gravity can be supported with scientific proof. Somebody on a car forum doing something against the design and instructions of the OEM and getting away with it, has not yet been. Show me the manufacturer's certification on the OEM injectors, fuel pump, the spec of the rubber lines, etc. that prove that our entire fuel system can handle ethanol fuels or you are wrong. Just because you can get away with it for some amount of time doesn't mean it is okay.


But, you guys feel free to prove me wrong by running an E85 garage queen without fuel stabilizer or a 10-15 year E85 daily driver and feel free to come call me stupid if it works out. I guess we'll see who really gets the last laugh.

How suprising, another anecdote without citing any sources!

We're not here to prove you wrong. Youre here in the thread PROCLAIMING how bad it is to run E85 without any evidence.



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[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by eherschend

How suprising, another anecdote without citing any sources!

We're not here to prove you wrong. Youre here in the thread PROCLAIMING how bad it is to run E85 without any evidence.



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If you need someone to post cited sources that ethanol wears away rubber linings and seals, and draws water out of the air, which leading to increased corrosion in the system and other negative effects, then you are so stupid that you can't be helped. One source would be oh I don't know, any basic chemistry textbook.


Nobody is arguing whether or not this stuff happens, only how significant of an effect it has on this car's platform and whether or not the OEM parts are sufficiently prepared for it. If you aren't at that point yet and are still denying that it happens at all, then YOU need to take your lazy ass on a trip around google and figure out the basics yourself.

[Nothingman]

Given such a small sample size of people running E85 in their FRS/BRZ and the fact that these cars only been in production for 4yrs, trying to get definitive PROOF that this particular vehicle application cannot handle longterm use of E85 will not happen for a few more years at the least. I have yet to see a post on this forum of someone who had serious damage from running E85 (that's not to say that there isn't one).

Like @steve99 stated above "no one can give you a 100% guarantee, but guys have been running e85 for 3 years plus and 100'000 plus miles no issues."

I think that this can be said for many many aftermarket mods, IMHO anyone who is willing to modify their vehicle and stray away from OEM must come to terms with the fact that what they are putting in/on their car might decrease the overall life of their vehicle. Keep in mind I am not one of those OEM purists, I simply deal in logic and accept the fact that when I mod my car it may be detrimental in the long run.

Personally, I started running E85 2 months ago (only about 1k miles so far), I did ponder the risks/reward of doing so and gathered all of the information I could on the subject before making the switch. I will say that the car drives and feels much more responsive and is well worth it, in my current opinion. However, that opinion may change if the motor blew or something was broken/damaged and I had definitive evidence that such damage was caused from running E85.

Whichever way you choose E85 or not, getting an OFT and catless header might have been the best money/mod combo I've ever had on any of my cars. It makes the car feel like it should have felt from the start.

[Rougenite]

I dont think anybody is dense enough to not know it caused issues for vehicles in the past. Which were not designed in ANY way to handle Ethanol.

But do you honestly think that car companies haven't adapted and started building vehicles that can handle Ethanol? Think about the costs to them if things started failing while still under warranty because of it. (e15 is gonna be a thing soon)

While I understand a single data point is useless, a large amount of single data points are not. Gathering data is a step in the right direction.

IIRC there were some newer vehicles that were not even using a traditional sensor, but instead were doing the ethanol content calculations within the ECU/o2 somehow. Some companies slap a Yellow Gas cap and a flex fuel sticker and its good. A GMC had the exact same fuel pump part number for both flex and non. I need to hunt to find it again, but its there!

Basically; is there 0% chance of anything going wrong because I run E85 consistently? No.

Is it a guaranteed problem? Nope.

Anybody that mods a car should know changing anything brings some risk with it. You either come to terms with it and keep going, or you don't.

[Lantana frs]

Who plans on putting 200k on these things? They're sports cars.