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Old 06-23-2015, 08:01 PM   #85
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I can assure you no bias was made on that dyno, the results are actually quite consistent with OTS tunes from OFT and have all been done in the name of research to see what is the best solution for our cars.

like i've said, ask the major tuners for our cars what they think of all the tuning solutions available.


And they will recommend whoever pays them.
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:09 PM   #86
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I can assure you no bias was made on that dyno, the results are actually quite consistent with OTS tunes from OFT and have all been done in the name of research to see what is the best solution for our cars.

like i've said, ask the major tuners for our cars what they think of all the tuning solutions available.
For NA cars the tune tables you change with ecutek\romraider-oft\tactrix-ecuflash are the same its all down to the tuner.
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:16 PM   #87
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Your minimum wage is more than I make hourly coaching at racing schools.... apples and oranges.

I can go to a happy hour and get a beer for $2.50 here.
exactly mate, but stuff is expensive like fuel $1.80 per litre
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:20 PM   #88
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Your minimum wage is more than I make hourly coaching at racing schools.... apples and oranges.

I can go to a happy hour and get a beer for $2.50 here.

No worries, Obama's crew will have minimum wage up and a tune will $2000-$3000 dollar in no time. Enjoy happy hour while it's affordable.
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:57 PM   #89
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facebook groups dedicated to our cars, please don't just take my word for it. ask all the major tuners for our cars. Drift office, James Martin, Delicious tuning, the boys at CSG.

Ask them what they think and make your own opinion about it. I'm just hoping i can save someone some money on buying something that just won't give them the results they're looking for.
From @jamesm himself "I've tuned both and gotten the same results with either. For an NA car the end result is exactly the same, since you don't use much if any of ecutek's custom mapping stuff, the process is pretty much identical. Same goes for using romraider and a tactrix cable. The only difference lies in the software interface, flash times, workflow etc."
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=25
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:52 PM   #90
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And they will recommend whoever pays them.
My tuner made no money on the license that was installed on my car.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:16 AM   #91
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My tuner made no money on the license that was installed on my car.
For me, I opted to go OFT because of price point. Oft is 500usd, so 616 Canadian (but I bought mine used for 500 CAD). Ecutek is 650usd, so 800 CAD. Before shipping and taxes. Add a header to that, I picked up the CNT header, at 350 usd, it came to just under 500 CAD. If I was to go tomei, I'm looking at 675 usd, or 831 CAD. If I wanted the ace header, looking at 1495 usd, or 1842 CAD. Again, all before shipping and taxes.

Do the math, I don't go to the track often due to my work schedule. But I can run an aftermarket header, and get a nice sounding car for under 1000, versus 1630 for ecutek and tomei or 2645 for ace and ecutek (again, before shipping and taxes). Plus, let's not forget the cost of tuning, and the pain in the ass of driving around 1.5 hours each way to get to a reliable tuner, so add in cost of gas and my time (which is very valuable, considering I get basically 5 days at home, to make up for everything I've missed over the past 25 days). For someone in my situation, is the extra 600 or the extra 1600 really worth it?

I get it, for people who want every last ounce, ecutek is the way to go. But for someone like me, who wants an extra bump, while minding my wallet, what's so bad about an OTS tune?
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:49 AM   #92
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Some people want Volk rims while some are fine with Rota. Different people have different needs. Like I said before, we should all be happy that we can have these discussions, as it means we have options.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:15 AM   #93
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we are, look above




that's too much, you can get a full custom tune and a ecutek license for 650. you can also try to find a tuner to use other tuning software for less if you want to cut out ecutek license cost.



I don't know about you, but i rather trust my tuner to make those tweaks to ensure my tune is safe vs doing it myself. Also, i'd say most OFT users don't do this, they just plug and play and have that nice placebo effect from the butt dyno.


i wouldn't run e85 without a flexfuel kit to monitor the ethanol content of my fuel. but that's me, i know plenty of people do without it.



again you're too high on this, i went fully bolted for 2200$ including the cost of the tune. that's just over 2x more than the ofh/oft combo and my results are much better than what i posted above and i have the support of my tuner should any issues arise. you don't get that with OFT.



you are free to feel that way, but i've shown you proof that you would be incorrect. I've also seen dyno from James who's another one of the best tuners for our platform and he's seen cars LOSE power running a stage 2 OFT tune.
I go by retail prices RP, it's not fair to say "I got this for that, I can do this by circumventing this.."

I got my catback FT86SF V2 for $120 but I won't try to leverage that $120 into any comparison because the majority of people will buy retail

--

An off-the-shelf tune is a starting point- I'm sure as you had an AP. I had one too, until I realized that it was the worst of both closedsource and opensource worlds.

The value of OFT for me is the learning experience. I spent $450 on an intake that does arguably very little- do you really think I would go OFT when I have Bob at Drift down the road who would maximize my N/A power for a little more?

That's the thing- it's freaking N/A. If one could get their car to be 90% of another's for half the cost, that's winning to me- because that last 10% on a sub 200whp platform is nothing, and arguably IAT compensation and driving with the headlights on/off, stereo on/off all chistle down the difference. I understand your reservation about not using E85 without flexfuel but really.. come on.. that's borderline scaremongering. The E85 stations are so few and far between that Sun Energy products virtually control the whole show in the U.S.- consistent product. The off the shelf maf scale is designed to compensate for the E70 to E85 swing. I'm not the biggest fan of them right now for other reasons, but you can't entirely discount the teens, perhaps hundreds of people successfully running corn juice successfully on the platform with this circumvention of a flexfuel kit

I'm not racing my car, I'm learning about the art of the modern automobile, having fun while doing it, and commuting 500 miles a week in the thing.

I love tinkering around with tunes, and have been since day one of my first enthusiast car.

- Do I trust myself with my car?
- Can people become affluent in basic principles and paradigms of software tuning?
- Is this worth it to me?

Those are all subjective questions so I don't have any hard pact answers- other than beautiful logs and a very healthy engine pegged at IAM = 1 on both 91octane and E85 (no surprises there). I'd put it on the dyno but I see non-competitive N/A bolt-on builds as by and large vanilla and boring. Like homeboy's quote of @jamesm above me... one tuning solution isn't inherently above the other so it's a bit useless to try and slander the OFT's ability to deliver a solid tune.

I also get a free datalogging and flash tablet (simply don't get that with Ecutek full stop). This is supplementary to the DIY approach- data is king and the ability to observe and extract data in a relatively efficient fashion is worth the salt of the tablet alone (albeit they're not the most, erm, sturdy ).

Two very important features to me that I don't get with Ecutek. I never denied the full potential of Ecutek, specifically when it comes to forced induction and dynamic timing maps ala flexfuel kit setups.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:23 AM   #94
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My tuner made no money on the license that was installed on my car.
P.S. RP, come on, that's not what he meant

Of course he's making money on the license that was installed on your car. Perhaps not directly tied to that specific transaction, but it'd be incomplete to say he didn't gain anything from doing so.

It's not a bad thing to have preferred vendors. That's the way business should be. The only bad part comes in when vendors, lobby groups, and other entities try to slander other products. Not saying you're or anyone in this thread is doing so now. Just some food for thought
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:39 PM   #95
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Those dyno runs are from my car. I was shocked at the OFT tune performance to say the least. At first I thought I had accidentally loaded a Stage 1 tune but I confirmed it was Stage 2 91 Octane v2.66.

Looking at my data logs from a track outing just after that tune and it is clear the car pulls harder than before (custom tune vs OFT 93 Stage 2 UEL, both with 95+ octane gas). I also shaved 2+ seconds off my best lap time; not all of that was from the tune, but it definitely contributed.

If I had to do it again, I would have gone with a Tomei UEL and a custom tune, as CSG recommended. I was looking for a simple OTS solution and didn't want to bother with custom tuning as I've always gone with OTS from Dinan, EvoMS and others that created OTS tunes to go with their kits and I had no experience with custom tuning. The simplicity of one stop shopping is nice, when it works...

However, it turns out that the OFT is very handy for data logging and viewing knock data and it seems to be the most cost effective solution for that. So, it is still not a bad way to get started IMO.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:41 PM   #96
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For someone in my situation, is the extra 600 or the extra 1600 really worth it?

I get it, for people who want every last ounce, ecutek is the way to go. But for someone like me, who wants an extra bump, while minding my wallet, what's so bad about an OTS tune?
weren't you complaining that your OTS tune netted you almost no gains? and seemed shocked when I told you its because of the rom you installed.

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That's the thing- it's freaking N/A. If one could get their car to be 90% of another's for half the cost, that's winning to me- because that last 10% on a sub 200whp platform is nothing,
but you aren't getting to 90%, you are sometimes not even getting better results than the stock tune can deliver. have you put your car on the dyno to compare results? i think you should take the time and throw down the 30/40$ to have a couple pulls and see what you're actually getting for your hard earned money.

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I understand your reservation about not using E85 without flexfuel but really.. come on.. that's borderline scaremongering.
really, didn't realize i was coming off like fox news here and i never intended to. i just said i wouldn't run e85 without a flex fuel kit. and i certainly would NEVER run a ots tune to run e85 without a flex fuel kit. but that's me, i don't feel safe doing so.

but the main reason why i haven't even looked at getting flex fuel tune/kit is because

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The E85 stations are so few and far between
bingo

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I love tinkering around with tunes, and have been since day one of my first enthusiast car.

- Do I trust myself with my car?
- Can people become affluent in basic principles and paradigms of software tuning?
- Is this worth it to me?
I'm glad you feel comfortable tinkering with the tune on your engine. and i have certainly taught myself how to do maf calibrations, i understand what goes into the various fueling and cam profile tables. however I don't have six grand laying around to replace my engine so i'm going to leave it in the hands of the pro that I trust to use the experience of over 130 different 86 that he's tuned (plus the experience he's gathered from being in the business a ridiculously long time) to make sure i'm not forking over major cash to replace a paperweight.

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I also get a free datalogging and flash tablet (simply don't get that with Ecutek full stop). This is supplementary to the DIY approach- data is king and the ability to observe and extract data in a relatively efficient fashion is worth the salt of the tablet alone (albeit they're not the most, erm, sturdy ).
not sure why you keep bringing this up, you can data log with ecutek, how else is the tuner going to be able to see how the tune is holding up, how else are e-tunes being performed using ecutek.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:49 PM   #97
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@RobertPaulson no, not shocked. Just forget that sarcasm doesn't translate wel here. And I can't remember exactly how I put it, but I believe the point I was getting at is that in my opinion, the wait time for an OFH isn't worth the cost or performance. Also, way to entirely sidestep my point about cost. Which at this point, is my main factor.

I understand I won't get that torque dip eliminated, or have a perfect tune for my car, but to save between 600 and 1600, it's an ideal solution for me. I'd spell my points out for you again, but I'd be wasting my time at this point.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:54 PM   #98
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