Cooling Dilemmas

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

i have 2 wrx sti nozzle for intercooler waterspray that i can activate with the fog switch, it 's pretty cool to spray for some seconds and see the charge temp drop and stop climbing when full gas on boost
Also to drop quickly the temp in the summer after a stop and the hood totally heatsoaked

Exactly. I think the OP should consider that. What do you think about doing water injection on top of meth injection? Overkill? Well, we don't know his needs, so maybe not. The M4 has used it, so it could be worth some cooling gains.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...es-horsepower/

[NoHaveMSG]

There are other ways to mount brake ducting without going through the fog light bezel. Not really an obstacle I would be concerned with.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

There are other ways to mount brake ducting without going through the fog light bezel. Not really an obstacle I would be concerned with.

Of course. There are many ways to do all these things.

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Exactly. I think the OP should consider that. What do you think about doing water injection on top of meth injection? Overkill? Well, we don't know his needs, so maybe not. The M4 has used it, so it could be worth some cooling gains.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...es-horsepower/

WMI or WI are much superior since they cool and suppress knock directly in cylinder , i would say overkill

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

We don't really know. Do you? Do you have an example of anyone saying their IATs were higher after installing their oil cooler in front of their intercooler, or has anyone measured the temperature of the air coming through the oil cooler? Even if they did, there may still be enough time and enough of a temperature differential to drop the temperature to the same level regardless. We can guess, but we don't know unless you have something compelling to share. Do you? I'm open to seeing the data and changing my mind.

Doesn't seem like it, seems like you are more intent on proving your point. Funny thing is, for most applications I agree with you I doubt most guys who have boosted street cars will care or would notice the difference.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Doesn't seem like it, seems like you are more intent on proving your point. Funny thing is, for most applications I agree with you I doubt most guys who have boosted street cars will care or would notice the difference.

I’m the only one trying to prove a point and not just stated theory. I’ve given several examples to suggest there may be no cooling dilemma. There is no sense in fixing a problem that doesn’t exist. Moreover, it is senseless discussing a problem that hasn’t been defined; ie, we still don’t know what are the goals for the OP’s car in terms of horsepower or application.

Besides those issues, we don’t actually have anyone providing anything tangible about what applications would warrant consideration for relocating an oil cooler or intercooler or to make a v-mount setup. I think it is worth discussing the data. The fact that I am the only one here who seems to think that matters is odd to me. I’m perfectly willing to concede in light of anything compelling. In the meantime, I think the debate is worth having for reference for anyone doing some research, so the thread doesn’t lead to conjecture that winds down the path of unnecessary purchases and modifications.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

There is no sense in fixing a problem that doesn’t exist.

relocating an oil cooler or intercooler or to make a v-mount setup.

This is assuming he already has an oil cooler installed. Otherwise it would not be fixing anything or relocating anything by installing it behind the fog light to begin with from the start.

So unless your argument is that an oil cooler shouldn’t be installed at all.
Then I still have no idea what “point” or “argument” you are trying to make.

My previous posts above already illustrated and established there is no down side to install behind fog light, only up side. Seems like the most logical place to install an oil cooler if you are boosted. even if its only a 1% better improvement in overall cooling, then it is the better option of the two locations since both are the same cost and ease of install.

Now if he already had it installed stacked up front. Then yeah it may not be worth the time to relocate.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

This is assuming he already has an oil cooler installed. Otherwise it would not be fixing anything or relocating anything by installing it behind the fog light to begin with from the start.

So unless your argument is that an oil cooler shouldn’t be installed at all.
Then I still have no idea what “point” or “argument” you are trying to make.

My previous posts above already illustrated and established there is no down side to install behind fog light, only up side. Seems like the most logical place to install an oil cooler if you are boosted. even if its only a 1% better improvement in overall cooling, then it is the better option of the two locations since both are the same cost and ease of install.

Now if he already had it installed stacked up front. Then yeah it may not be worth the time to relocate.

At this point he is just being contentious. I mentioned testing the air coming off the oil cooler with a thermocouple because I believe it is shedding more heat then he thinks, he counters with anecdotal evidence about air moving at 65mph. He's mentioned brake ducts in multiple posts like it is a concern, I mention they don't have to be side mounted and he responds with an "of course." I don't know what he wants in this thread anymore.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

At this point he is just being contentious. I mentioned testing the air coming off the oil cooler with a thermocouple because I believe it is shedding more heat then he thinks, he counters with anecdotal evidence about air moving at 65mph. He's mentioned brake ducts in multiple posts like it is a concern, I mention they don't have to be side mounted and he responds with an "of course." I don't know what he wants in this thread anymore.

I’ve stated it multiple times: I want the OP to say what are his goals in terms of horsepower and what he intends to do.

You mentioned doing a test below, but then said you didn’t. Have you measured the differential at speed? My calculations about heat exchange time related to air speed wasn’t anecdotal, and it, along with the experiments, were more about countering theory with theory. There is just as much theory to suggest it doesn’t make a difference as there is theory to suggest it does.

I think you would be surprised, it sheds quite a bit of heat. If I didn't just kill one of my thermocouples I'd test it on my NA car. Though to test it properly I would need to build a duct off the back of the oil cooler to prevent ambient air from mixing with it to get a better reading.

I mentioned brake ducts because that space is often used for brake ducting in race applications. A SMIC or oil cooler can also go there of course. Every setup is different for prioritizing different things. My point is that the OP appeared to want to have space for everything so nothing is stacked. Thus, he can move the oil cooler to the side only to move the brake ducts to the middle, which may block the radiator or intercooler. The packaging of everything requires forethought and careful consideration if the car/application demands such considerations, which it seems his car will require, maybe; we don’t know. He has been mum about any specifics. Apparently, it is a secret.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’ve stated it multiple times: I want the OP to say what are his goals in terms of horsepower and what he intends to do.

You mentioned doing a test below, but then said you didn’t. Have you measured the differential at speed? My calculations about heat exchange time related to air speed wasn’t anecdotal, and it, along with the experiments, were more about countering theory with theory. There is just as much theory to suggest it doesn’t make a difference as there is theory to suggest it does.



I mentioned brake ducts because that space is often used for brake ducting in race applications. A SMIC or oil cooler can also go there of course. Every setup is different for prioritizing different things. My point is that the OP appeared to want to have space for everything so nothing is stacked. Thus, he can move the oil cooler to the side only to move the brake ducts to the middle, which may block the radiator or intercooler. The packaging of everything requires forethought and careful consideration if the car/application demands such considerations, which it seems his car will require, maybe; we don’t know. He has been mum about any specifics. Apparently, it is a secret.

I am confused by the bolded statement. I said I'd test it(air temp off the oil cooler) if I didn't just kill a thermocouple. I don't know what this " then said you didn't" refers to.

Here are all of my posts up to the one you quoted.

I think you would be surprised, it sheds quite a bit of heat. If I didn't just kill one of my thermocouples I'd test it on my NA car. Though to test it properly I would need to build a duct off the back of the oil cooler to prevent ambient air from mixing with it to get a better reading.

There are other ways to mount brake ducting without going through the fog light bezel. Not really an obstacle I would be concerned with.

Doesn't seem like it, seems like you are more intent on proving your point. Funny thing is, for most applications I agree with you I doubt most guys who have boosted street cars will care or would notice the difference.

The more I think about it, I don't know how useful it would be to your point. I could only measure the air temp coming off the cooler, I can't correlate it to IAT of an intercooled car since I'm not boosted. You could test your point yourself by logging oil temp, ambient, and IAT with and without an oil cooler. Though as I said, it is something I could test though the motivation to do it has dwindled quite a bit. Maybe I will mess around with it later in the year when I work on measuring oil temps and pressures in and out of the cooler. I think a big factor is how close the oil cooler is to the intercooler. The air coming through needs some time to diffuse as well as not radiating heat directly to the intercooler, or obstructing intercooler flow.

Your airspeed comment makes no sense. The oil cooler is an obstruction, the air moving through it is not going 65mph even if the car is. Makes all those numbers worthless. I am sure you could measure the airspeed into the oil cooler and exiting to figure out the pressure drop over the area to calculate the airflow through it, and then calculate the amount of BTU's that volume of air can carry away at that speed, but that sounds like wayyyyy to much work.

Brake ducts can be built and mounted however, even if the OP's car is a full on race car it is not going to be an issue no matter where the oil cooler or intercooler goes. Why mention it? Not an obstacle. You come across as only mentioning it when it suits your argument.

Reading the OP's previous posts, I am not sure I would be concerned with his usage. Especially if he is not commenting on it. Not a dig at him, he just seems new to the modding game with his previous threads and from the sounds of it doesn't track his car.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I am confused by the bolded statement. I said I'd test it(air temp off the oil cooler) if I didn't just kill a thermocouple. I don't know what this " then said you didn't" refers to.

Here are all of my posts up to the one you quoted.









The more I think about it, I don't know how useful it would be to your point. I could only measure the air temp coming off the cooler, I can't correlate it to IAT of an intercooled car since I'm not boosted. You could test your point yourself by logging oil temp, ambient, and IAT with and without an oil cooler. Though as I said, it is something I could test though the motivation to do it has dwindled quite a bit. Maybe I will mess around with it later in the year when I work on measuring oil temps and pressures in and out of the cooler. I think a big factor is how close the oil cooler is to the intercooler. The air coming through needs some time to diffuse as well as not radiating heat directly to the intercooler, or obstructing intercooler flow.

Your airspeed comment makes no sense. The oil cooler is an obstruction, the air moving through it is not going 65mph even if the car is. Makes all those numbers worthless. I am sure you could measure the airspeed into the oil cooler and exiting to figure out the pressure drop over the area to calculate the airflow through it, and then calculate the amount of BTU's that volume of air can carry away at that speed, but that sounds like wayyyyy to much work.

Brake ducts can be built and mounted however, even if the OP's car is a full on race car it is not going to be an issue no matter where the oil cooler or intercooler goes. Why mention it? Not an obstacle. You come across as only mentioning it when it suits your argument.

Reading the OP's previous posts, I am not sure I would be concerned with his usage. Especially if he is not commenting on it. Not a dig at him, he just seems new to the modding game with his previous threads and from the sounds of it doesn't track his car.

You’re right that there would be a decrease in speed of the air, and it would create a low pressure zone behind the oil cooler, and you’re right that I didn’t include/consider that into my calculations. I’m thinking there are many factors like the thickness of the core and density of the core that would change the rate of air flow through the cooler. Still, I would like to see some real data and not just conjecture. If the delta isn’t great, if fresh air can get between the heat exchangers because of a high pressure area around a low pressure area, if the frontal area of the cooler isn’t significant enough in size to cause a change in IATs, if the circumstances that warrant concern are only in the most extreme applications, etc, then there may be no reason to justify divorcing all the exchangers.

I mention the brake ducts because there is only so much frontal area to gather incoming air to feed a radiator, oil cooler, trans cooler, AC, intercooler, brake system, air intake, etc., and as it pertains to a SMIC or oil cooler, the space is often needing to be shared with the brake ducts or a CAI or whatever. It also makes for short and direct routing. In race applications, a bump to the corner might cause damage to the oil cooler too, but a crash bar in the front usually protects the exchangers in front. Of course someone can make it work if they want. My point is to being in all the necessary elements into the conversation depending on the setup. No point in only addressing one thing when moving X can effect Y.

With regards to your final paragraph, that is my suspicion too, but I’m curious what application he thinks requires such considerations. If it isn’t clear, my threshold for such considerations is high, so if I’m mistaken then I’m interested in learning where I went wrong with my thinking.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You’re right that there would be a decrease in speed of the air, and it would create a low pressure zone behind the oil cooler, and you’re right that I didn’t include/consider that into my calculations. I’m thinking there are many factors like the thickness of the core and density of the core that would change the rate of air flow through the cooler. Still, I would like to see some real data and not just conjecture. If the delta isn’t great, if fresh air can get between the heat exchangers because of a high pressure area around a low pressure area, if the frontal area of the cooler isn’t significant enough in size to cause a change in IATs, if the circumstances that warrant concern are only in the most extreme applications, etc, then there may be no reason to justify divorcing all the exchangers.

I pretty much agree. I'd just have no way to corollate any data that I could gather to IAT's.