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Old 09-24-2021, 12:31 AM   #15
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I dont know how much weight you can realistically keep off when you have to have a certain amount of batteries in it to provide a realistic amount of range.

It almost seems like an EV equipped car is roughly 400 lbs more than its ICE counterpart.
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Old 09-24-2021, 10:22 AM   #16
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Porsche is always one step ahead.
Ah, but let us not forget: The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese . . . Just sayin'.
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Old 09-24-2021, 11:03 AM   #17
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I dont know how much weight you can realistically keep off when you have to have a certain amount of batteries in it to provide a realistic amount of range.

It almost seems like an EV equipped car is roughly 400 lbs more than its ICE counterpart.
It's not necessarily the range that's the problem with sports cars, it's the discharge rate. You can't pull as much current out of a small battery as a large battery. Which means you need a gigantic battery to put down the same acceleration numbers as a Tesla. And that's what sells apparently.
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Old 09-24-2021, 11:24 AM   #18
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Ah, but let us not forget: The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese . . . Just sayin'.
I would find it so hilarious if it turned out BEVs become a dead-end (and the Teslas et al become the proverbial "first mouse") while hydrogen or something else somehow becomes the norm.

Maybe (probably?) I just haven't read into enough, but I haven't heard anything that would address the scarcity of the raw materials needed for batteries for anything approaching significant proportions of vehicles on the road.
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Old 09-24-2021, 11:25 AM   #19
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Ah, but let us not forget: The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese . . . Just sayin'.
Personally, I believe it'll be the first case. The success of Boxster/Cayman was to be an entry level sports car and use common parts with the 911. The success of new car will be to use common parts with the Taycan.



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Old 09-24-2021, 11:37 AM   #20
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I wonder if the CEO at Porsche had a complete meltdown when he caught wind of the Tesla Plaid model. Maybe not, after all they got massive electrification press from the 918.

They have to make a better product and will continue to retain the knowhow to build track capable cars and sedan or SUV spin-offs at the upper end of the mass market.

Interesting that Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda presented to a huge Japanese automotive trade committee, over which he presides informing the members that elimination of ICE production in Japan will result in loss of 5 million jobs by 2030. He went on to explain current and upcoming hybrid technologies have increasing environmental performance that will maintain prominence going forward.

Light metals, ie lithium ion batteries entering the market are all recyclable. Not sure the percentage return on lithium when recycled but like steel, the more that gets manufactured then recycled, the bigger the available quantity of that commodity. Not sure.the limiting factor is lithium availability at least in the short term. Perhaps we will deplete lithium rather than oil from the planet at some point until another ion transfer element is used.
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Old 09-24-2021, 12:56 PM   #21
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I would find it so hilarious if it turned out BEVs become a dead-end (and the Teslas et al become the proverbial "first mouse") while hydrogen or something else somehow becomes the norm.

Maybe (probably?) I just haven't read into enough, but I haven't heard anything that would address the scarcity of the raw materials needed for batteries for anything approaching significant proportions of vehicles on the road.
Thats the problem with the "we must do this immediately!" crowd.

The problem is obvious.(climate change/CO2 emissions)
The solutions are obvious (green power, EV cars)

The In between is never thought or talked about because its never that easy because it eats into the narrative and may not make whatever green thing sound as green as it needs to be.
(Raw Materials/scarcity/pollution, EV's arent as green as they seem, EV infrastructure sucks in most places around the world, charging times, disposal problems, costs, how to transition without completely effing up the economy, etc)
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Old 09-24-2021, 01:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by wbradley View Post
I wonder if the CEO at Porsche had a complete meltdown when he caught wind of the Tesla Plaid model. Maybe not, after all they got massive electrification press from the 918.

They have to make a better product and will continue to retain the knowhow to build track capable cars and sedan or SUV spin-offs at the upper end of the mass market.

Interesting that Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda presented to a huge Japanese automotive trade committee, over which he presides informing the members that elimination of ICE production in Japan will result in loss of 5 million jobs by 2030. He went on to explain current and upcoming hybrid technologies have increasing environmental performance that will maintain prominence going forward.

Light metals, ie lithium ion batteries entering the market are all recyclable. Not sure the percentage return on lithium when recycled but like steel, the more that gets manufactured then recycled, the bigger the available quantity of that commodity. Not sure.the limiting factor is lithium availability at least in the short term. Perhaps we will deplete lithium rather than oil from the planet at some point until another ion transfer element is used.
Akio Toyoda is a car guy so im sure he doesnt want to jump full onto the BEV bandwagon. Im sure he doesnt want to give up on the ICE until he absolutely has to, which seems like it makes his transition strategy a bit slow. Plus with hybrids and hydrogen in his arsenal I think he feels he can have all his bases covered in addition to having BEV's.
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Old 09-24-2021, 01:14 PM   #23
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1. Buyers are stupid. 0-60 times matter, driving characteristics, not so much.
2. Whiners insist they need more range, more range, more range, just to try to entrench on avoiding change. But there is also some truth, too little can really be a trouble. So big batteries are a thing. Somewhere along the way we'll find a decent place where range works.

3. With the weight low on the chassis and the torque plentiful, weight is not necessarily the problem.


It doesn't matter if we manage micro-fusion reactors in a few years and batteries aren't a thing. Electric probably IS here to stay, and for performance nerds that really should be a good thing. Right now, batteries are our best answer. Use 'em, keep searching for better.


I expect a great handling, fun to drive car from Porsche.


Some day we'll see more affordable options... But likely not as cheap as we're currently happy with. TCO might be similar though, just more up front.


Also, Lotus IS developing new platforms. Some interesting stuff.
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Old 09-24-2021, 01:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sasquachulator View Post
Akio Toyoda is a car guy so im sure he doesnt want to jump full onto the BEV bandwagon. Im sure he doesnt want to give up on the ICE until he absolutely has to, which seems like it makes his transition strategy a bit slow. Plus with hybrids and hydrogen in his arsenal I think he feels he can have all his bases covered in addition to having BEV's.
Not to mention, going BEV-only also means giving up on the developing world.
Between lacking infrastructure and economic ability, BEVs would be a tough sell (to say the least).
A hybrid would at least be fine with just rudimentary infrastructure (you can still gas it up if you run out of charge; just strap some jerry cans to the roof).
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Old 09-24-2021, 03:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daiheadjai View Post
Not to mention, going BEV-only also means giving up on the developing world.
Between lacking infrastructure and economic ability, BEVs would be a tough sell (to say the least).
A hybrid would at least be fine with just rudimentary infrastructure (you can still gas it up if you run out of charge; just strap some jerry cans to the roof).
That's where my mind is at. Plug-in hybrids seem to be the best of both worlds while the infrastructure catches up.
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Old 09-24-2021, 06:59 PM   #26
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I dont know how much weight you can realistically keep off when you have to have a certain amount of batteries in it to provide a realistic amount of range.

It almost seems like an EV equipped car is roughly 400 lbs more than its ICE counterpart.
If you get a dual motor Tesla AWD long range then yes, it will be heavy, but a RWD Tesla Model 3 standard range is 3,552 lbs, and a 2018 BMW 340i is listed at 3,555 lbs. Similar size, weight and performance.

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Old 09-24-2021, 09:19 PM   #27
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It's not necessarily the range that's the problem with sports cars, it's the discharge rate. You can't pull as much current out of a small battery as a large battery. Which means you need a gigantic battery to put down the same acceleration numbers as a Tesla. And that's what sells apparently.
It depends on the type of battery. Tesla batteries don't have the fastest discharge rate, but they are cheap, so they can make up for the power deficiency with size, which also helps with range. Adding a lot of slow-rate-discharge batteries together will add up to high power, but a person could alternatively use batteries that are capable of a faster discharge rate that would be smaller and lighter, but their efficiency, range and longevity would likely suffer.

I remember an EV swap where the person used a Nissan Leaf battery with a Tesla motor and said the Nissan battery made the car faster, but this was a purpose built drag car, so range was not a concern. The pouch design technically is lighter and more energy dense and has a higher C rating for discharging.
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Old 09-25-2021, 12:42 AM   #28
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It depends on the type of battery. Tesla batteries don't have the fastest discharge rate, but they are cheap, so they can make up for the power deficiency with size, which also helps with range. Adding a lot of slow-rate-discharge batteries together will add up to high power, but a person could alternatively use batteries that are capable of a faster discharge rate that would be smaller and lighter, but their efficiency, range and longevity would likely suffer.

I remember an EV swap where the person used a Nissan Leaf battery with a Tesla motor and said the Nissan battery made the car faster, but this was a purpose built drag car, so range was not a concern. The pouch design technically is lighter and more energy dense and has a higher C rating for discharging.
The Model S has many times more power output than an e-golf. That chart doesn't add up.
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