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Old 01-27-2021, 08:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
The OEM transmission is not the strongest, but it is good enough. Many people are running double the power and torque. I'm running a bar of boost on E85. I have some gear grind, but I think this was more from the previous owner maybe missing 5th often than the transmission being faulty. The S2000 transmission is slightly better. I don't know if the choice to use the factory transmission is because it fit better, or they will be able to sell more parts, or they found that it reduces the costs for consumers.


I'm curious about their high horsepower transmission option. I don't know if they will use the CD009. If so then it will probably take some tunnel modifications if the engine sits against the firewall. The CD009 just barely fits with the FA20 with minor clearance issues.
I am not overly concerned with the OE transmission. I just see it as a potential weak link. I did recently score a spare for my car.

K Power does already make adaptor kits to use the BMW 5 and 6 speed with the K series. It is a bit on the heavy side but no worse then the CD009. Plus they are tough and cheap. I don't know how tough it would be to fit in the transmission tunnel.
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Old 01-27-2021, 08:27 PM   #30
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This is a stock TSX engine, right? How much HP will it yield with those mods? I believe this engine has true VTEC but I see people putting K20Z3 (8th gen si) heads on them. Why would they do that if the TSX engine already has true VTEC?


http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...ily-breakdown/


Differences in K24A and K24Z


Here is an all motor K24 swap that is thorough but not necessarily exceptional. Dyno in video


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Old 01-27-2021, 08:30 PM   #31
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I am not overly concerned with the OE transmission. I just see it as a potential weak link. I did recently score a spare for my car.

K Power does already make adaptor kits to use the BMW 5 and 6 speed with the K series. It is a bit on the heavy side but no worse then the CD009. Plus they are tough and cheap. I don't know how tough it would be to fit in the transmission tunnel.


I'm not familiar enough with the BMWs to add personal opinions, but all I read is that the BMW transmissions have long throws that are sloppy or numb. Like I said, I think this was a matter of reducing cost or having one less thing to source or to keep things simple.
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Old 01-27-2021, 08:41 PM   #32
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The only concern is drivability from a project car like this, you will always have to tinker. If it can be relatively problem free, this is a VERY attractive option. Maybe I donít have faith in suby engines but I highly doubt the new FA24 is going to drive/perform better than the K24.


I think the K24 has proven to be a strong engine. I don't know if the FA24 will prove capable of handling boost the same, especially with such a high compression. A built K24 is pretty strong. The reality is that most people just won't be building the car for monster power.


The FA24 will have D4S and high compression, so response, low end torque, fuel economy, etc will likely be better at similar peak power, but I bet a K24 will make more NA power with E85 and bolt ons, but with that high compression, the FA24 will possibly respond really well to E85.


This swap is for a particular audience: someone who blows their engine might really want to consider this over a new, used FA20/FA24 or a rebuild. I can't see many people selling their stock motor, especially a low mileage FA24, just to put this in their car unless they are a Honda fanboy or know the K-series or are hell bent on saving weight and maximizing an NA build. I can also see people doing what solidsnake11 did, as an alternative to a LS or 2JZ swap, do the high hp K24 swap.
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Old 01-27-2021, 09:41 PM   #33
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The 140lbs difference may be a combination of things that go beyond just the motor. I think the motors are probably close to 75-90 pounds different.
Yeah that weight figure makes more sense. They claim the pre-swap car was 2810 lbs, which seems unusually heavy. A 2013 FR-S is 50+ lbs lighter than that, for example. It should be a nice reduction in weight over the front regardless though.

Overall I think it's an interesting swap. It's not going to be cheap and IMO it'll probably never be worth it, but I also haven't blown up my engine yet (after ~40 track days and lots of hard canyon miles). I suppose it'll be a tough choice between finding a cheap used FA20 or swapping a K24 if that ever happens.

-EDIT-

They also claim:

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a stock K24 should gain at least 75whp over a stock FA20, so we wouldn't call that nearly identical hp. That's a game changer!
I don't see how that's remotely possible. Stock 2012 Civic SI and BRZ/FR-S dyno within a few hp of each other on a dyno jet. Seems like they are inflating the benefits to generate more interest.
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Old 01-27-2021, 10:07 PM   #34
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The 2012 Civic Si uses the K24Z7, whereas this swap is based on the K24A series. With the K24A2 specifically there is untapped potential that can be unlocked with a tune. A lot of the HP they are quoting will come from the intake manifold which will produce substantially more hp vs the K24A2 OEM intake manifold.

Can’t wait to see where the swap kit ends up price wise. I’ve been waiting for this for a while! I test drove a 2018 BRZ and the engine was the only drawback. Left a lot to be desired from a character perspective. Just felt lazy and unenthusiastic. This should be a big improvement!
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Old 01-27-2021, 10:15 PM   #35
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Yeah that weight figure makes more sense. They claim the pre-swap car was 2810 lbs, which seems unusually heavy. A 2013 FR-S is 50+ lbs lighter than that, for example. It should be a nice reduction in weight over the front regardless though.
.
They didnt use a FRS in the swap though. They used a BRZ which always weight 20-40lbs more additionally when Pure Automotive did their swap the their BRZ started at 2780.. and ended at 2615lbs..

Being worth it is relative isnt? Anyone who does any swap feels that it is indeed worth it. Lol

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Old 01-27-2021, 11:51 PM   #36
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Yeah that weight figure makes more sense. They claim the pre-swap car was 2810 lbs, which seems unusually heavy. A 2013 FR-S is 50+ lbs lighter than that, for example. It should be a nice reduction in weight over the front regardless though.

Overall I think it's an interesting swap. It's not going to be cheap and IMO it'll probably never be worth it, but I also haven't blown up my engine yet (after ~40 track days and lots of hard canyon miles). I suppose it'll be a tough choice between finding a cheap used FA20 or swapping a K24 if that ever happens.

-EDIT-

They also claim:



I don't see how that's remotely possible. Stock 2012 Civic SI and BRZ/FR-S dyno within a few hp of each other on a dyno jet. Seems like they are inflating the benefits to generate more interest.
What I am saying is yes, the K24 should be lighter, but it isn't an apples to apples comparison because there may be things like a lightweight/aluminum driveshaft, a lightweight flywheel, lightweight headers vs the FA20's thick walled headers and heat shields, and other things. They mention using a hydraulic TOB, which could be lighter than the old TOB plus fork and pivot setup, or it could be heavier. I'm just saying that if someone did all those modifications to the FA20 then that may reduce the gains from 140lbs to something much lower like sub 100lbs. Regardless, it is still nice to have 100lbs off the car.

I think if someone did a K20A/A2 head on a K24A2 block and did cams, intake, exhaust manifold, K20 oil pump, etc then getting gains will come from 0.4L of extra displacement and the potential for higher rpms to 8k+ and actually making power at those rpms. Say the FA20D does 170-175whp stock then a K20/24 with bolt ons might do 235whp and more with E85, so it is possible it will do 75whp or more, but it really depends on the build, and I wouldn't say someone should expect "at least" 75whp. Put a K24A1/4 and the results will be less.
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Old 01-28-2021, 01:11 AM   #37
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The 2012 Civic Si uses the K24Z7, whereas this swap is based on the K24A series. With the K24A2 specifically there is untapped potential that can be unlocked with a tune. A lot of the HP they are quoting will come from the intake manifold which will produce substantially more hp vs the K24A2 OEM intake manifold.

Canít wait to see where the swap kit ends up price wise. Iíve been waiting for this for a while! I test drove a 2018 BRZ and the engine was the only drawback. Left a lot to be desired from a character perspective. Just felt lazy and unenthusiastic. This should be a big improvement!

I love Honda engines, especially ones with real VTEC. So this is a really interesting swap.
That being said, I donít understand the hate the FA20 always gets. You would think itís the worst engine ever made if you only read reviews. Personally I think itís a really fun and quirky engine, and itís willing to rev. Not as eagerly as a K series Honda engine, but itís no slouch. And I average about 30mpg. I completely understand that people might feel a little let down with the FA, because the chassis is so good on the twins. But it wouldnít have been any better if letís say Toyota put a 2ZR or M20 in the car. Unless they upgraded one of those engines a lot. (Those are both really good and reliable engines, but not very sporty).
What upsets me is seeing what they will do to make the new GR Yaris so exciting to drive, but the 86 is sort of left as is for 8 years. Iím really hoping the FA24 will solve some of the deficiencies of the FA20.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I agree that a K24 is an improvement over the FA20.


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Old 01-28-2021, 02:24 AM   #38
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I love Honda engines, especially ones with real VTEC. So this is a really interesting swap.
That being said, I donít understand the hate the FA20 always gets. You would think itís the worst engine ever made if you only read reviews. Personally I think itís a really fun and quirky engine, and itís willing to rev. Not as eagerly as a K series Honda engine, but itís no slouch. And I average about 30mpg. I completely understand that people might feel a little let down with the FA, because the chassis is so good on the twins. But it wouldnít have been any better if letís say Toyota put a 2ZR or M20 in the car. Unless they upgraded one of those engines a lot. (Those are both really good and reliable engines, but not very sporty).
What upsets me is seeing what they will do to make the new GR Yaris so exciting to drive, but the 86 is sort of left as is for 8 years. Iím really hoping the FA24 will solve some of the deficiencies of the FA20.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I agree that a K24 is an improvement over the FA20.


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I don't know about the FA20F, but the FA20D gets a bad reputation because it isn't a Toyota engine in an 86 just like the Supra has a BMW engine. The other reason is that the engine doesn't respond as well to NA mods as other engines, nor does it handle boost as well as lower compression motors did without E85. It also is heavy for a NA 4 cylinder, and it is hard to change spark plugs or access some things, and it is more complex, and it isn't as pretty. In some respects, it is not a very good tuner's engine. Yet, it does have D4S in a sea of cars that just have direct injections, so it is easy and cheap to add larger injectors, and it is a superior fueling platform.

I get the beef, but I also don't really have a problem with the motor. It has been reliable for me, and I make enough power to be satisfied. I like how it sounds, how it revs and how it feels with the low COG. With that said, I don't feel attached to it in any way. I would have been just as fine with a compact I4 like the K20 or K24. The FA24 should close the gap some on the K24 for the majority of NA and mild boost enthusiasts, which is the vast majority of people who modify this platform, but the K24 is the better platform for serious boost, whether we are talking a stock or built motor. Overall, I'm happy with the engine because it fits the car. It allowed the hood to be low and the engine to be positioned well enough behind the front wheels. I don't think a K24 would have resulted in the same exterior, nor would it have been positioned so close to the firewall as we see in these swaps. Food for thought.
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Old 01-28-2021, 02:54 AM   #39
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They didnt use a FRS in the swap though. They used a BRZ which always weight 20-40lbs more additionally when Pure Automotive did their swap the their BRZ started at 2780.. and ended at 2615lbs..

Being worth it is relative isnt? Anyone who does any swap feels that it is indeed worth it. Lol
I've never seen a 13-16 BRZ weigh in above 2800 lbs unless it was an automatic. Actually I've never seen a 2017+ that heavy either. Most bone stock FRS's and even BRZ's I've seen come in under 2750. If you believe their numbers, that's fine, I just think it's a little odd.

Also worth is definitely relative/subjective, no doubt about that! But here's the thing, I don't think I'm alone in my perspective. It's probably going to be $7-10k for the swap (just guessing, pricing hasn't been released yet) to gain maybe 20-30 whp over a FBO E85 FA20. Not saying that's not a significant bump in power, but compared to the cost and issues that come with swaps, it's a tough sell unless you're talking about a blown FA20 situation. Again just my opinion.

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What I am saying is yes, the K24 should be lighter, but it isn't an apples to apples comparison because there may be things like a lightweight/aluminum driveshaft, a lightweight flywheel, lightweight headers vs the FA20's thick walled headers and heat shields, and other things. They mention using a hydraulic TOB, which could be lighter than the old TOB plus fork and pivot setup, or it could be heavier. I'm just saying that if someone did all those modifications to the FA20 then that may reduce the gains from 140lbs to something much lower like sub 100lbs. Regardless, it is still nice to have 100lbs off the car.

I think if someone did a K20A/A2 head on a K24A2 block and did cams, intake, exhaust manifold, K20 oil pump, etc then getting gains will come from 0.4L of extra displacement and the potential for higher rpms to 8k+ and actually making power at those rpms. Say the FA20D does 170-175whp stock then a K20/24 with bolt ons might do 235whp and more with E85, so it is possible it will do 75whp or more, but it really depends on the build, and I wouldn't say someone should expect "at least" 75whp. Put a K24A1/4 and the results will be less.
On their FB page, they're pushing this swap pretty hard and I get that from a business perspective. But there's no point making comparisons that aren't apples-to-apples. If they're talking about a FBO K20/24 on E85 making 240 whp, then compare that to a FBO FA20 on E85 making 210 whp and you get a 30 whp difference. Or if they're talking about bone stock K24a2 making 170-180 whp, then compare that to a bone stock FA20 making 165-175 whp for a 5 whp difference.

Saying a stock K24 will make 75 whp over a stock FA20, I don't think there's any legitimate apples-to-apples math that gets you there (or anywhere close really).

The merits of the swap are valid enough to stand on their own. No need to play loose with the numbers. That's all I'm getting at.
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Old 01-28-2021, 02:58 AM   #40
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I don't know about the FA20F, but the FA20D gets a bad reputation because it isn't a Toyota engine in an 86 just like the Supra has a BMW engine. The other reason is that the engine doesn't respond as well to NA mods as other engines, nor does it handle boost as well as lower compression motors did without E85. It also is heavy for a NA 4 cylinder, and it is hard to change spark plugs or access some things, and it is more complex, and it isn't as pretty. In some respects, it is not a very good tuner's engine. Yet, it does have D4S in a sea of cars that just have direct injections, so it is easy and cheap to add larger injectors, and it is a superior fueling platform.

I get the beef, but I also don't really have a problem with the motor. It has been reliable for me, and I make enough power to be satisfied. I like how it sounds, how it revs and how it feels with the low COG. With that said, I don't feel attached to it in any way. I would have been just as fine with a compact I4 like the K20 or K24. The FA24 should close the gap some on the K24 for the majority of NA and mild boost enthusiasts, which is the vast majority of people who modify this platform, but the K24 is the better platform for serious boost, whether we are talking a stock or built motor. Overall, I'm happy with the engine because it fits the car. It allowed the hood to be low and the engine to be positioned well enough behind the front wheels. I don't think a K24 would have resulted in the same exterior, nor would it have been positioned so close to the firewall as we see in these swaps. Food for thought.

I honestly don't mind my FA20, but I have been looking for a longer term project so this checked all the boxes. The FA20 can be pretty good in fact once you ignore the echo of forum members without first hand experience. lol



FWIW the F20C is less than 10mm shorter than the K24 and they both fit in the S2000 with its much lower hood just fine. Even with this swap they could have mounted it even lower but chose not too. A D4S 2.0L 2ZZ would have been great but oh well.
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Old 01-28-2021, 08:10 AM   #41
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http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...ily-breakdown/


Differences in K24A and K24Z


Here is an all motor K24 swap that is thorough but not necessarily exceptional. Dyno in video


Thank you. Looks like the best version of the K24 is the A2 (TSX engine). Or you can go to a K20A which is the type R offering very decent performance out of the box. I will keep an eye out to see if one of those comes up for sale for a decent deal locally. My BRZ is still pretty young hence it will be a while for me, if i even, to go down this route. Definitely one of those project where the timeline is measured in years. lol
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Old 01-28-2021, 08:26 AM   #42
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I love Honda engines, especially ones with real VTEC. So this is a really interesting swap.
That being said, I donít understand the hate the FA20 always gets. You would think itís the worst engine ever made if you only read reviews. Personally I think itís a really fun and quirky engine, and itís willing to rev. Not as eagerly as a K series Honda engine, but itís no slouch. And I average about 30mpg. I completely understand that people might feel a little let down with the FA, because the chassis is so good on the twins. But it wouldnít have been any better if letís say Toyota put a 2ZR or M20 in the car. Unless they upgraded one of those engines a lot. (Those are both really good and reliable engines, but not very sporty).
What upsets me is seeing what they will do to make the new GR Yaris so exciting to drive, but the 86 is sort of left as is for 8 years. Iím really hoping the FA24 will solve some of the deficiencies of the FA20.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I agree that a K24 is an improvement over the FA20.


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The FA20 is the one and only let down to an otherwise amazing chassis and i am not just comparing it to Honda's K/B/F series engine. I regularly drive my wife's IS350 and despite a lower redline, the engine feels much smoother when i hone it around town. The FA20 will rev out but it doesn't feel/sound happy while doing it. Still, i bought one because i just love the overall chassis dynamics. The k swap is a very interesting proposition, combining one of the best engines with one of the best chassis on the market.
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