Shopping between BRZ and MX-5. Can't get over torque dip.

[Summerwolf]

If you're on the fence or torque dip is the main sticking point.... this is not the car for you.

The mx5 has a feel to it, but performance wise the cars are very similar.

Best option.... rebuild the xrunner. It's already a great driver with plenty of utility.... and it's a cheaper and more desirable option than either vehicles.

[alex87f]

The guy I bought my GT-86 from sold it for a 2018 MX-5 RF (manual, top trim), and we've had the opportunity to talk about how he thought both cars compared. While he generally enjoys the Mx-5, he misses the 86 quite a lot (and even suggested buying it back and having the dealer buy his MX-5 back). Talked to him again a year later and his opinion hadn't changed.

-The MX-5's way behind in the utility department - even his folding bicycle doesn't fit in the boot, while the '86 fits 4 18" wheels with some room to spare and both front seats still available. I'm not a fan of getting more utility than you need, but on a daily basis the 86 really has the edge (especially if you're coming from an SUV)
-It's much smaller on the inside - my 6'2" frame fits well in the '86, but I just couldn't drive an MX-5 for more than a few miles. And even if you're a little shorter and can fit, the extra room makes the car feel less cramped on longer drive & commutes. At least the '19 MX-5s add the reach-adjustable wheel which the prior model years didn't have
-One of his major gripes with the MX-5 was how soft the stock suspension was (his didn't have the bilstein shocks), and how the car didn't feel as sharp

The fuel economy on both cars, while much different on the EPA ratings, is actually quite close (I get 31mpg on winter tires with my 25 miles commute). The MX-5 has a little edge though.

Regarding the torque dip, after close to two years of owning the car, I've grown to know it, but it really doesn't bother me all that much. As someone else pointed out, when you're really going at it, you're above it. And it's over by 4.5 - 4.6k, not 6k as you suggested. I've actually kind of grown to like how it surges past 4.5k . To some extent the torque dip is also linked to the fact that the car has quite decent torque (for a 2.0NA, of course) around 2.5 - 3k, which makes the later dip all that more noticeable. It wouldn't feel that way if it had a little less torque down low.

The power will feel a little short after some time, but that's the same with 300hp cars, you just get used to what you have and end up wishing for more. That's also your responsibility - learn to enjoy what you've got - getting a higher powered car won't really solve that.

Last but not least, utility is indeed a rental away, but so is a $600 bill for repairing a chip in the back bumper . Before the '86, I used to get rentals whenever I needed some extra space / utility, but while over a few times you might get lucky, over a longer period of time you're bound to be stuck with a repair bill for something you missed during the handover inspection. And borrowing / renting is time-consuming.

Oh and the '19 BRZ does have Androïd auto. And the BBK isn't really needed on either car I think. Plenty of people have tracked the twins extensively and never needed a BBK. Plus they make pads / disk changes much more expensive.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

If you're on the fence or torque dip is the main sticking point.... this is not the car for you.

The mx5 has a feel to it, but performance wise the cars are very similar.

Best option.... rebuild the xrunner. It's already a great driver with plenty of utility.... and it's a cheaper and more desirable option than either vehicles.

I love my truck, but dumping money in now after 14 years is not a good choice. Especially when my all highway miles are creeping in around 18 mpg. I've already switched off 91 because I'm getting such horrible mileage.

The torque dip obviously isn't something I'd want in a car, but if that's the worst thing about the car, it isn't the worst thing in the world to live with when compared to the lack of utility in the other. Like others have said, I can rent a truck if I really need it, but I forgot to mention reclining front seats so I can nap in the car is also a thing I will miss if I don't have it. I mean the torque dip is like a malformed nose on an otherwise perfect face. Not the end of the world, but it's a pretty glaring flaw.

The renting a truck thing does sway the decision towards MX-5 honestly. Still, there's a price to all of it. Until I get the numbers back from the dealers tomorrow, I won't know how much the scales have tipped. I'll inform everyone what that'll be when time comes, but either way, I think I'm going to be very happy. With just the slightest hint of regret.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Read an article in evo magazine where they were comparing the Miata RF, 86 and the Fiat 124 Spider and the 86 came out on top. They had a separate test for just the 86 (base version this time) and the Miata roadster and the 86 still edged it.

[Dadhawk]

@KAuss sounds like our commute is similar lengths (I do 80 mile per day, and have done 146,000 miles in the 86).

Frankly, if this is going to be your commuter car, you are putting too much emphasis on the torque dip. If you are doing commute driving you don't notice it, and if you are stepping into the throttle you're going to be above it anyway. Honestly if someone had shown me the charts, I wouldn't have known it existed.

If you need room, the MX-5 is not the solution (check out my "Junk in the Trunk" thread for how roomy the 86 is).

For overall value I don't think the cars are close in comparison, 86 wins hands down, particularly as a commuter car. But, admittedly, I'm not a fan of the Miata, and while the newest is a better looking car than the previous ones, I still think they look like bathtubs on wheels.

As far as the "rent space when you need it" mantra, I'm not a believer. If I'm throwing down nearly $30K or more for my DD it needs to fit 95% of my daily driving tasks. Renting a car is just to inconvenient to have to do it on a regular (or even semiregular) basis.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by alex87f

The guy I bought my GT-86 from sold it for a 2018 MX-5 RF (manual, top trim), and we've had the opportunity to talk about how he thought both cars compared. While he generally enjoys the Mx-5, he misses the 86 quite a lot (and even suggested buying it back and having the dealer buy his MX-5 back). Talked to him again a year later and his opinion hadn't changed.

-The MX-5's way behind in the utility department - even his folding bicycle doesn't fit in the boot, while the '86 fits 4 18" wheels with some room to spare and both front seats still available. I'm not a fan of getting more utility than you need, but on a daily basis the 86 really has the edge (especially if you're coming from an SUV)
-It's much smaller on the inside - my 6'2" frame fits well in the '86, but I just couldn't drive an MX-5 for more than a few miles. And even if you're a little shorter and can fit, the extra room makes the car feel less cramped on longer drive & commutes. At least the '19 MX-5s add the reach-adjustable wheel which the prior model years didn't have
-One of his major gripes with the MX-5 was how soft the stock suspension was (his didn't have the bilstein shocks), and how the car didn't feel as sharp

The fuel economy on both cars, while much different on the EPA ratings, is actually quite close (I get 31mpg on winter tires with my 25 miles commute). The MX-5 has a little edge though.

Regarding the torque dip, after close to two years of owning the car, I've grown to know it, but it really doesn't bother me all that much. As someone else pointed out, when you're really going at it, you're above it. And it's over by 4.5 - 4.6k, not 6k as you suggested. I've actually kind of grown to like how it surges past 4.5k . To some extent the torque dip is also linked to the fact that the car has quite decent torque (for a 2.0NA, of course) around 2.5 - 3k, which makes the later dip all that more noticeable. It wouldn't feel that way if it had a little less torque down low.

The power will feel a little short after some time, but that's the same with 300hp cars, you just get used to what you have and end up wishing for more. That's also your responsibility - learn to enjoy what you've got - getting a higher powered car won't really solve that.

Last but not least, utility is indeed a rental away, but so is a $600 bill for repairing a chip in the back bumper . Before the '86, I used to get rentals whenever I needed some extra space / utility, but while over a few times you might get lucky, over a longer period of time you're bound to be stuck with a repair bill for something you missed during the handover inspection. And borrowing / renting is time-consuming.

Oh and the '19 BRZ does have Androïd auto. And the BBK isn't really needed on either car I think. Plenty of people have tracked the twins extensively and never needed a BBK. Plus they make pads / disk changes much more expensive.

This is probably the most convincing BRZ reply I've heard yet. Everything you said is logical. I appreciate the input. I mean hearing owners say the dip is workable after knowing it is reassuring. I'm also a fan of downshifting, so it's not like I'm against it. I just haven't had the chance to do that on my test drive, and I wasn't able to really turn it up past 6K during my experience. The salesperson wasn't saying anything, but I also didn't want to kill a new car's break in by driving it too hard. It was a very nice car after all.

This is going to be tough. It's 5:25 am and I have work in like 7 hours, and I can't sleep because I'm still up weighing everything out hahah. This is first world problems between dating a movie star, or a A list singer. Kinda wish the movie star could sing, and the singer can act, but they both drop dead gorgeous...

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

@KAuss sounds like our commute is similar links (I do 80 mile per day, and have done 146,000 miles in the 86).

Frankly, if this is going to be your commuter car, you are putting too much emphasis on the torque dip. If you are doing commute driving you don't notice it, and if you are stepping into the throttle you're going to be above it anyway. Honestly if someone had shown me the charts, I wouldn't have known it existed.

If you need room, the MX-5 is not the solution (check out my "Junk in the Trunk" thread for how roomy the 86 is).

For overall value I don't think the cars are close in comparison, 86 wins hands down, particularly as a commuter car. But, admittedly, I'm not a fan of the Miata, and while the newest is a better looking car than the previous ones, I still think they look like bathtubs on wheels.

As far as the "rent space when you need it" mantra, I'm not a believer. If I'm throwing down nearly $30K or more for my DD it needs to fit 95% of my daily driving tasks. Renting a car is just to inconvenient to have to do it on a regular (or even semiregular) basis.

You're not wrong in the commute not needing the torque part. I use cruise control, but I'm also driving a truck I've owned for 14 years. Which has 18 mpg, and if I even so much think about putting the pedal down, I'm just looking at my gas needle dip LOL. So I've tried to live on the sane side as of late because the truck has dipped from 20 mpg going 85 mph in two years. Now it's 18 going 75.

I've actually looked at the space, and am well aware of the space being able to hold 4 tires and a jack from even the concept information from way back. I also found this picture that had a legend of every measurement of trunk space as well. Unfortunately, I have a dual Q series Kicker L7 sub in my truck right now, and that thing is 15 7/8" tall, while the trunk is 15.5" tall. If that thing was 17" tall, I would probably give the BRZ a bunch of pionts, but because I can't reuse those subs, I'm going to have to sell it with the truck. Still, that trunk space is going to be occupied by some kind of sub setup. It's actually more important to me knowing how I feel about my truck after 14 years. When I'm not driving like an idiot, having the subs really make my drive a lot sweeter. This is where the MX-5 has to make up for it with it being convertible. Since I won't have subs in that thing at all.

The one reason why the MX-5 will win as a commuter car though is because of the gas mileage. Even if you get on it with that thing, you'll be hard fetched to drop below 30mpg. Like I can probably drive it in 4th the whole time and it'll still have amazing mileage. It does not trump everything the BRZ can do better though. BRZ will halve many many more points making it a better commuter.

You bring good points up, and they're not wrong. I'll have 1K miles in either car after a month, so after that, I can fully test out the torque dip thing if I end up in the BRZ.

[Interlocker]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

As for the torque dip, I don't notice it to cruising around, and when I'm up it, it's never that low in the rev range, honestly, I think marketing and Koolaid has more to do with the torque dip than actual real world outcomes, unless you think you are racecardriverbecauseracecar

I've only had my 86 for about two months, but I 100% agree with this. The ultra-low-end torque combined with the throttle response is actually quite decent for around town. It's like they gave the car an around-town mode down low and a let's-have-fun mode up high. 2-for-1 deal.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by KAuss

I love my truck, but dumping money in now after 14 years is not a good choice. Especially when my all highway miles are creeping in around 18 mpg. I've already switched off 91 because I'm getting such horrible mileage.

The torque dip obviously isn't something I'd want in a car, but if that's the worst thing about the car, it isn't the worst thing in the world to live with when compared to the lack of utility in the other. Like others have said, I can rent a truck if I really need it, but I forgot to mention reclining front seats so I can nap in the car is also a thing I will miss if I don't have it. I mean the torque dip is like a malformed nose on an otherwise perfect face. Not the end of the world, but it's a pretty glaring flaw.

The renting a truck thing does sway the decision towards MX-5 honestly. Still, there's a price to all of it. Until I get the numbers back from the dealers tomorrow, I won't know how much the scales have tipped. I'll inform everyone what that'll be when time comes, but either way, I think I'm going to be very happy. With just the slightest hint of regret.

You'd have less in a rebuild of a paid off, desirable, rare(ish) xrunner than it would cost to buy either of these cars.

I see xrunners going with 150k+ for what an 80k 13 frs sells for. Also.... utility.

Basically, don't buy a twin. I foresee more "problem" threads for us and buyer's remorse for you.

[MuseChaser]

I could make you a great deal on a 2103 FRS...recall has been done. Less than 1/3 the price of what you're considering spending. You could buy my car, fix your xRunnsr, and still have$10k or more left over to spend!


Let me know if you're interested.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

You'd have less in a rebuild of a paid off, desirable, rare(ish) xrunner than it would cost to buy either of these cars.

I see xrunners going with 150k+ for what an 80k 13 frs sells for. Also.... utility.

Basically, don't buy a twin. I foresee more "problem" threads for us and buyer's remorse for you.

I'd be paying cash for either the BRZ or MX-5, so I am not worried about the thing being paid off. Also, the X-Runner having value now is exactly why it's worth selling. Though my truck in current condition will probably not fetch more than 8.5K. Since no one is going to value the sound system in it, and the other mods I put on it. Though new Sport S4S is worth $1K alone.

I'd tell you I'd regret either the MX-5 or the BRZ. Because of the reasons already stated here. However, after I made my decision, it's one that I chose to go with. So I don't think it'll matter at that point. The only regret I'd have is if we're really two years away from a new gen, and I buy today.

This is exactly what stopped me from getting a NC. I bought the X-Runner in 2005, and the NC came out in 2006. Mid way through, I'd figure I'd sell the truck for the FRS, but didn't see the value in it at the time, but my job has changed in the last 5 years, and having paid for the gas to drive 80 miles these last 5 years have really hurt me. Not to mention, my job also netted me enough pay now to make it a good choice to switch.

So I'm dead set in getting something. Initially I thought I'd ride it out for another 6 months, but since I got the ball rolling, and the new car smell hit me today. I think I'll probably end up with a car by the end of this week.

I would love to have someone in the family take the truck, but I have no one to give it to lol. The truck is amazing, but I've had it for 14 years. If it was a 2013, maybe there's a chance I'd still keep it, but I think it's time to move on. If there's one decision that's definitely made, it's that I won't be keeping the truck.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by KAuss

The one reason why the MX-5 will win as a commuter car though is because of the gas mileage. Even if you get on it with that thing, you'll be hard fetched to drop below 30mpg. Like I can probably drive it in 4th the whole time and it'll still have amazing mileage. It does not trump everything the BRZ can do better though. BRZ will halve many many more points making it a better commuter..

On fuel mileage, here are my stats (also available in my Owner's Journal). It should be noted I have an AT, that I drive in manual about 50% of the time. The AT does get slightly better mileage than the MT. I am always the first off the light, and have never met a curve I don't take as a challenge, zero effort to hypermile.

355 Fill-Ups with an average of 33.12 MPG
My lowest mileage for a tank was 27.6MPG (1 instance)
A total of 8 tanks were below 30MPG (all city driving or stuck in traffic)
My Best was 40.6MPG (1 instance)
121 tanks were 32.6 to 33.6 MPG

Full history:

[Jordanwolf]

I would reserve comments about the torque dip to actual owners. This is a really big stigma about this car and seems to be the true complainers wanted a faster car, or a faster feeling car, something with the kick of an ecoboost mustang for example.

If the car is driven correctly, the torque dip is no issue. If the car is being daily driven in traffic and tons of lights, why is the torque dip a deciding factor at all?

In my very honest opinion, if you are scared of the torque dip and think it will hinder your fun with the car, you're looking at the wrong car and should move on. Get something with a turbo that 'feels' fast.

Originally Posted by KAuss

I drive 80 miles a day on my commute, and the BRZ's utility is worth something to me. I just can't get over the torque dip.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I would reserve comments about the torque dip to actual owners. This is a really big stigma about this car and seems to be the true complainers wanted a faster car, or a faster feeling car, something with the kick of an ecoboost mustang for example.

If the car is driven correctly, the torque dip is no issue. If the car is being daily driven in traffic and tons of lights, why is the torque dip a deciding factor at all?

In my very honest opinion, if you are scared of the torque dip and think it will hinder your fun with the car, you're looking at the wrong car and should move on. Get something with a turbo that 'feels' fast.

Anybody that owned a turbo car from the 90s should not even notice the "dip". Just pretend that it's very brief appearance is turbo lag and all of a sudden it becomes a feature not an issue.