follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing)

Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing) Everything related to the mechanical maintenance of the FR-S and BRZ


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-31-2021, 10:06 AM   #15
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,188 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pope View Post
.
So to be clear it does not specify or list 5w-30 is a recommended spec?

it says a higher oil (doesn't specify what weight) can be used in extreme situations like tracking. Last time i checked daily driving isn't extreme.
Also that entire section is an example explaining what oil weight is/means not necessarily specific to the vehicle either.

In the section before that, that is specific to the vehicle it clearly states.
recommended viscosity 0w-20 (no other weight listed as recommended such as 5w-30)
and states
If 0w-20 is not available 5w-20 may be used (doesn't say 5w-30), but MUST be replaced with 0W-20 on the next oil change (indicating its not ideal but an alternative in a pinch).
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2021, 10:07 AM   #16
FR-S2GT86
Master Collaborator
 
FR-S2GT86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Drives: Was '15 FR-S, 6MT, Now '15 GT86
Location: West Virginia, USA
Posts: 1,394
Thanks: 208
Thanked 985 Times in 597 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Go back to the recommended weight, but in addition, change from ILSAC GF-5 to ILSAC GF-6 for further protection.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.ac View Post
My pubes are shaped like the number 86. There for I’m car. Derp
Count to muffens and call again.
I’m 40. So....... say hi to your sisters or daughters.
FR-S2GT86 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FR-S2GT86 For This Useful Post:
Dzmitry (03-31-2021)
Old 03-31-2021, 10:23 AM   #17
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
Link to manual showing spec of 5w-30?
RToyo quoted it above.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2021, 10:31 AM   #18
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
So to be clear it does not specify or list 5w-30 is a recommended spec?

it says a higher oil (doesn't specify what weight) can be used in extreme situations like tracking. Last time i checked daily driving isn't extreme.
Also that entire section is an example explaining what oil weight is/means not necessarily specific to the vehicle either.

In the section before that, that is specific to the vehicle it clearly states.
recommended viscosity 0w-20 (no other weight listed as recommended such as 5w-30)
and states
If 0w-20 is not available 5w-20 may be used (doesn't say 5w-30), but MUST be replaced with 0W-20 on the next oil change (indicating its not ideal but an alternative in a pinch).
You are being a little too literal about an oil weight that's only slightly higher than 0w-20. Though I don't disagree with you. RToyo quoted the links in other regions that specify 5w-30 that was referring to, if you want to be literal.

Otherwise, there is no big deal in running 5w-30 for us, the oil is not different enough in thickness to cause any damage. Though I have no proof of this, you can certainly read into the hundreds, or even thousands of people on this forum who run higher weight oils without issues (I am referring to the moderate ones such as 5w-30 or 0w-40, etc). Besides, the argument here is not what specific oil weight he should choose, but rather that 15w-50 is WAY beyond any oil spec he should be running.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2021, 11:04 AM   #19
pope
has a funny hat
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Drives: 2014 BRZ Limited
Location: MI
Posts: 479
Thanks: 1,011
Thanked 613 Times in 271 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
So to be clear it does not specify or list 5w-30 is a recommended spec?

it says a higher oil (doesn't specify what weight) can be used in extreme situations like tracking. Last time i checked daily driving isn't extreme.
Also that entire section is an example explaining what oil weight is/means not necessarily specific to the vehicle either.

In the section before that, that is specific to the vehicle it clearly states.
recommended viscosity 0w-20 (no other weight listed as recommended such as 5w-30)
and states
If 0w-20 is not available 5w-20 may be used (doesn't say 5w-30), but MUST be replaced with 0W-20 on the next oil change (indicating its not ideal but an alternative in a pinch).
Daily driving in severe stop-and-go traffic such as in large cities with short distance, long time commutes (eg. LA, NYC, Seattle, Chicago, etc.) is an extreme use, so depending the OP’s location daily driving could justify heavier oil. Once he finishes sorting out his abundance of problems and installs the supercharger, being boosted would also justify thicker oil.

As Rtoyo posted, the manuals from non-US vehicles recommend various weights up to 10w-40 depending on use case. The engines are the same.

15w-50 is a way bit heavy for much use this side of track days in Arizona during the summer, but anyone that understands oil rating knows that 0w, 5w, or even 10w are completely fine depending on what type of “Winter” the vehicle is operated in. As for the operating weight, 20 is the general recommendation in modern vehicles to improve fuel efficiency and reduce emissions, but the use case and conditions are going to dictate whether 30+ are better choices.

Also remember the manual is written for the lowest common denominator, and in the US the low is pretty low (we’ve all seen the idiotic product warning labels), so telling people to use one specific oil is easier that expecting people to make a properly informed decision.
pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2021, 12:02 PM   #20
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by pope View Post
Daily driving in severe stop-and-go traffic such as in large cities with short distance, long time commutes (eg. LA, NYC, Seattle, Chicago, etc.) is an extreme use, so depending the OP’s location daily driving could justify heavier oil. Once he finishes sorting out his abundance of problems and installs the supercharger, being boosted would also justify thicker oil.

As Rtoyo posted, the manuals from non-US vehicles recommend various weights up to 10w-40 depending on use case. The engines are the same.

15w-50 is a way bit heavy for much use this side of track days in Arizona during the summer, but anyone that understands oil rating knows that 0w, 5w, or even 10w are completely fine depending on what type of “Winter” the vehicle is operated in. As for the operating weight, 20 is the general recommendation in modern vehicles to improve fuel efficiency and reduce emissions, but the use case and conditions are going to dictate whether 30+ are better choices.

Also remember the manual is written for the lowest common denominator, and in the US the low is pretty low (we’ve all seen the idiotic product warning labels), so telling people to use one specific oil is easier that expecting people to make a properly informed decision.
Though I agree with what you say, I would not consider stop and go traffic to be extreme, and I HIGHLY doubt that's what the manual is referring to either. People experience this type of driving style all the time, all around the world. Also, stop and go traffic raises the oil temperature very minimally, I have kept close watch of this in the past. In stop and go traffic, you also don't experience high REV's, which plays a much larger factor in proper oil pressure and having a proper oil weight respectively.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dzmitry For This Useful Post:
86TOYO2k17 (03-31-2021)
Old 03-31-2021, 04:27 PM   #21
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,188 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
RToyo quoted it above.
I don’t speak Japanese nor want to take that single little picture out of context.

The us manuals are very specific to what they say.

The other manual you linked I believe is from either older year cars and/or other markets still does not say 5w-30 is recommended. It still recommends 0w-20 and still says if unavailable then 5w-30 (later changed to 5w-20) can be used by you must fill with 0w-20 the next oil change.


Also now that i look more into why would they deliberately go out of there way to change the user manual from 5w-30 to 5w-20 as a less than ideal but still usable backup option? Did they get futher data and testing indicating they where wrong initially and it should have never been listed as an “option” that its actually too thick for normal applications.


To me it seems like one weight (0w-20) is recommended and another weight (5w-20/30) is optional.

“If it's recommended, you ought to include it if it's at all reasonable, and failure to do so will weaken your application. If something is optional, you should only include it if it will strengthen your application, or confirm an already positive impression made by other parts of your application.”

I don’t believe 95% of dailies warrant the need for heavier oil.

People say 5w-30 is better because it’s thicker and provides better protection, ok why not 10w-40 or 15w-50 then? Is it not thicker and therefor better? No its too thick? Ok how is that too thick but 5w-30 isn’t too thick.

What dictates and decides what the optional thickened or viscosity is?
Are all these people on here just chemical engineer oil analyst experts? Or are they all just repeating what everyone else says and continues the old train of thought about heavier oil weight is always better?
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 07:38 AM   #22
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
I don’t speak Japanese nor want to take that single little picture out of context.

The us manuals are very specific to what they say.

The other manual you linked I believe is from either older year cars and/or other markets still does not say 5w-30 is recommended. It still recommends 0w-20 and still says if unavailable then 5w-30 (later changed to 5w-20) can be used by you must fill with 0w-20 the next oil change.


Also now that i look more into why would they deliberately go out of there way to change the user manual from 5w-30 to 5w-20 as a less than ideal but still usable backup option? Did they get futher data and testing indicating they where wrong initially and it should have never been listed as an “option” that its actually too thick for normal applications.


To me it seems like one weight (0w-20) is recommended and another weight (5w-20/30) is optional.

“If it's recommended, you ought to include it if it's at all reasonable, and failure to do so will weaken your application. If something is optional, you should only include it if it will strengthen your application, or confirm an already positive impression made by other parts of your application.”

I don’t believe 95% of dailies warrant the need for heavier oil.

People say 5w-30 is better because it’s thicker and provides better protection, ok why not 10w-40 or 15w-50 then? Is it not thicker and therefor better? No its too thick? Ok how is that too thick but 5w-30 isn’t too thick.

What dictates and decides what the optional thickened or viscosity is?
Are all these people on here just chemical engineer oil analyst experts? Or are they all just repeating what everyone else says and continues the old train of thought about heavier oil weight is always better?
Haha, I understand your analysis of all this. And I am not going to dig too far as this has been a conversation in multiple threads I have had with others about oil pressures, temperatures, ideals, etc etc... But the reason I say what I say, is based on data that people have compiled for this platform over all these years. To specifically point out a question you ask, 15w-50 is too thick just because of the oil pressures the car sees at low temperatures and reasonable high temperatures within 230-240F. They can often be too high than what the spec calls for on this car. 5w-30 on the other hand see's a fairly minimal pressure change at low temperatures, and extremely small pressure changes at high temperatures. There is data for all of this flowing around these forums, so please don't ask me to quote it as I am just being general and not trying to start a full topic.

It is not as simple as "5w-30 is better because it's thicker". It all depends on your application and driving style and whether the car is tracked and how much, etc. 5w-30 can be acceptable because of oil thickness properties at that rating are similar to that of 0w-20, and not far off. 15w-50 on the other hand has significantly different thickness properties throughout all the temperatures ranges our platform experiences. A simple search of the two different types of oils will give you their viscosities, and you could graph it out to see how they vary.

In general, you are correct, there is no need for thicker oils for a DD. I was simply throwing the option of a slightly higher weight due to the fact that I don't know OP's driving style or oil temps that he see's. He also mentioned going forced induction in the near future, which will certainly be raising his oil temps.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dzmitry For This Useful Post:
86TOYO2k17 (04-01-2021)
Old 04-01-2021, 11:02 AM   #23
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,188 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
Haha, I understand your analysis of all this. And I am not going to dig too far as this has been a conversation in multiple threads I have had with others about oil pressures, temperatures, ideals, etc etc... But the reason I say what I say, is based on data that people have compiled for this platform over all these years. To specifically point out a question you ask, 15w-50 is too thick just because of the oil pressures the car sees at low temperatures and reasonable high temperatures within 230-240F. They can often be too high than what the spec calls for on this car. 5w-30 on the other hand see's a fairly minimal pressure change at low temperatures, and extremely small pressure changes at high temperatures. There is data for all of this flowing around these forums, so please don't ask me to quote it as I am just being general and not trying to start a full topic.

It is not as simple as "5w-30 is better because it's thicker". It all depends on your application and driving style and whether the car is tracked and how much, etc. 5w-30 can be acceptable because of oil thickness properties at that rating are similar to that of 0w-20, and not far off. 15w-50 on the other hand has significantly different thickness properties throughout all the temperatures ranges our platform experiences. A simple search of the two different types of oils will give you their viscosities, and you could graph it out to see how they vary.

In general, you are correct, there is no need for thicker oils for a DD. I was simply throwing the option of a slightly higher weight due to the fact that I don't know OP's driving style or oil temps that he see's. He also mentioned going forced induction in the near future, which will certainly be raising his oil temps.
I believe the point at which 5w-30 would exceed 0w-20 in overall "protection" is probably around 220-230F. vast majority of people are not seeing 230F on a DD. and I would first recommend trying to get oil temps under control via oil cooler and/or hood vents before making the switch, or maybe using 5w-30 during track season (assuming you are tracking) and 0W-20 for non track season.

For a pure DD the time spent below 180F for many people is probably much longer than the time spent above 200F and especially 220F+. I would rather have 0w-20 with sub 180F oil. It is probably a wash between 180-220F, and 5W-30 starts to become more advantageous 220F+

FI can raise temps sure, but should always be accompanied by an oil cooler in my opinion which would negate that for a DD.

I think we are in an agreeance that in more extreme cases like tracking 5w-30 might not be a bad idea.

but the vast majority of owners do not track and the vast majority of DDers are not pushing the car hard enough on the streets to warrant the switch to heavier weight oil in my opinion, especially if they have an oil cooler. I think at best the 5w-30 is no better or worse than 0W-20 in this case, and at worst it is actually doing more harm than good because of the added cold start / low temp wear. which goes back to my last post, only implement an "optional" recommendation if it will undoubtedly enhance or strengthen your application.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 86TOYO2k17 For This Useful Post:
Dzmitry (04-01-2021)
Old 04-01-2021, 11:12 AM   #24
Transport3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Drives: -
Location: US
Posts: 288
Thanks: 203
Thanked 294 Times in 147 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Tpyota 86 AT 2013 oil consumption, pls help

If you really want to find out, do a UOA with 0W30 and another one with 0W20. I did and the 0W30 had significantly less aluminum and iron wear. I’m in a hot climate so YMMV.

Edit: 0W30 instead of 5W30 allows you to have the same cold start protection as 0W20.
Transport3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 02:26 PM   #25
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,188 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transport3r View Post
If you really want to find out, do a UOA with 0W30 and another one with 0W20. I did and the 0W30 had significantly less aluminum and iron wear. I’m in a hot climate so YMMV.

Edit: 0W30 instead of 5W30 allows you to have the same cold start protection as 0W20.
Besides an engine tear down that is the best way to see what’s going on inside, but you’d need to have a good test with a good control to validate the results.

What was vehicle mileage at start of each test?
Miles driven per change? Months between change as well?
Avg ambient temp as well as oil temp when driving?
Avg MPG during each test, Mostly to use as an indicator of possible driving style changes
Driving style/condition?
Have you switched back and forth a few times to get repeated results?

Would be interesting to run 0w-20, then 0w-30, then 0w-30 again then back to 0w-20 to try to get 1 “test” per weather season, assuming you do 1 change every 6 months and drive identical mileage per.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 02:54 PM   #26
Transport3r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Drives: -
Location: US
Posts: 288
Thanks: 203
Thanked 294 Times in 147 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
Besides an engine tear down that is the best way to see what’s going on inside, but you’d need to have a good test with a good control to validate the results.

What was vehicle mileage at start of each test?
Miles driven per change? Months between change as well?
Avg ambient temp as well as oil temp when driving?
Avg MPG during each test, Mostly to use as an indicator of possible driving style changes
Driving style/condition?
Have you switched back and forth a few times to get repeated results?

Would be interesting to run 0w-20, then 0w-30, then 0w-30 again then back to 0w-20 to try to get 1 “test” per weather season, assuming you do 1 change every 6 months and drive identical mileage per.

I kept the mileage interval the same, between that and seeing a 30% drop in Al, I didn’t need more justification to stick with the 0W30
Transport3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 03:03 PM   #27
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
I believe the point at which 5w-30 would exceed 0w-20 in overall "protection" is probably around 220-230F. vast majority of people are not seeing 230F on a DD. and I would first recommend trying to get oil temps under control via oil cooler and/or hood vents before making the switch, or maybe using 5w-30 during track season (assuming you are tracking) and 0W-20 for non track season.

For a pure DD the time spent below 180F for many people is probably much longer than the time spent above 200F and especially 220F+. I would rather have 0w-20 with sub 180F oil. It is probably a wash between 180-220F, and 5W-30 starts to become more advantageous 220F+

FI can raise temps sure, but should always be accompanied by an oil cooler in my opinion which would negate that for a DD.

I think we are in an agreeance that in more extreme cases like tracking 5w-30 might not be a bad idea.

but the vast majority of owners do not track and the vast majority of DDers are not pushing the car hard enough on the streets to warrant the switch to heavier weight oil in my opinion, especially if they have an oil cooler. I think at best the 5w-30 is no better or worse than 0W-20 in this case, and at worst it is actually doing more harm than good because of the added cold start / low temp wear. which goes back to my last post, only implement an "optional" recommendation if it will undoubtedly enhance or strengthen your application.
Agreed on most points. One thing I would say though, is a DD is constantly seeing temps above 210F, and probably far more often than 180F. I have never seen my car settle or stay at 180F even for a short period of time. I live in Pennsylvania where climate varies from freezing to 100F on a nasty summer day. I am mostly DD and during the winters my temp holds around 210F once warmed up fully. During the summers, I am seeing 210-220F if I'm babying the car around, and almost always around 230F+ if I am riding highway or pushing it around a bit. In which case, to back up my statement, you said yourself that 5w-30 can become advantageous at 220F+, which I agree with.

I would also FAR rather go with 5w-30 oil rather than spend the money on an oil cooler and deal with the contrary issues of trying to get the oil up to temp (especially in the winter) and any other minor issues that can go along with one, such as leaks from mistakes, etc.

Last edited by Dzmitry; 04-01-2021 at 03:21 PM.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 03:08 PM   #28
Dzmitry
Senior Member
 
Dzmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2018 Subaru BRZ Limited with PP
Location: Phildalphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 975
Thanks: 2,122
Thanked 609 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transport3r View Post
If you really want to find out, do a UOA with 0W30 and another one with 0W20. I did and the 0W30 had significantly less aluminum and iron wear. I’m in a hot climate so YMMV.

Edit: 0W30 instead of 5W30 allows you to have the same cold start protection as 0W20.
Just to add to this, to be more clear, 0w-30 and 0w-20 do not have the same cold start protection. 0w-30 may have a higher viscosity index (but not always, you can search up various oils and their viscosity indexes to get an idea), but it will still have a higher viscosity at most of the temperatures we witness.

EDIT: quick example - see link below on last page. Notice that even a 5w-20 still has better cold start protection than a 0w-30. The number on the right tends to hold fairly true for how oil behaves at hot temperatures, but the number on the left is more of a general guide for what the oil is trying to shoot for so to speak. Further apart, such as 0w-40, means the oil will typically have a better index, which is a good thing.
https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/da...tins/g2880.pdf

Last edited by Dzmitry; 04-01-2021 at 03:18 PM.
Dzmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dzmitry For This Useful Post:
86TOYO2k17 (04-01-2021), Transport3r (04-01-2021)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2013 BRZ oil consumption Project N64 Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing) 32 01-16-2020 05:56 PM
Oil Consumption? smbstyle Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 42 10-08-2019 04:50 PM
Oil consumption? Please chime in OnTheFence Issues | Warranty | Recalls / TSB 48 10-01-2019 08:42 PM
E-85 consumption Lunatic Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 16 01-28-2016 08:15 PM
86 / BRZ Oil Consumption ZZT86 AUSTRALIA 1 04-29-2013 08:53 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.